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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OP ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
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TAPE #86
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March 7, 1993
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8:02 p.m,
8:49 p.m
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(tape 86
JOHN COX: Hello?
AYESHA: ...worry about It.
JOHN COX: What?
AYESHA: You don't have to worry about my age.
JOHN COX: Well I'm not worried about your age, I
just asked you how old you were.
AYESHA: Well, next question —
JOHN COX: Why are you, why are you reluctant to
talk to me?
AYESHA: Why am I reluctant?
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
AYESHA: I just asked you what your name, what
your name was and what your age was and — that would
be pretty easy, you know? To say what your name is
and, and how old you are.
AYESHA: Yeah, well, you know, if I don't want to
tell you, does it matter?
JOHN COX: Well why don't you?
AYESHA: (no answer)
JOHN COX: Do you understand, Ayesha — AYESHA:
You, you should — you can find out anyway.
JOHN COX: Why, do I —
AYESHA: What were you going to say? Sorry.
JOHN COX: Huh?
AYESHA: What were you going to say?
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JOHN COX: I was going to say, do you understand,
that David has said —
AYESHA: Huh?
JOHN COX: Are you listening to me, or are you
listening to someone else?
AYESHA: I'm trying to, yeah. Go ahead.
JOHN COX: Well you listen to me, okay? Do you
understand, that David has said that you are free to
leave as are all of the other people in there —
AYESHA: Uh-huh, yeah.
JOHN COX: — at, at any time.
AYESHA: Yeah.
JOHN COX: You understand that.
AYESHA: Yeah.
JOHN COX: And it’s my understanding that you
don't care to leave, is that correct?
AYESHA: No, yeah I don't want to leave.
JOHN COX: Okay. But you understand that you are
free to leave?
AYESHA: Yeah, I do, of course.
JOHN COX: Do you have any relatives that have
left the compound — any brothers, any sisters?
AYESHA: I have a brother, here, he hasn't left.
I, I think somebody just — some did talk to him
before.
JOHN COX: None, none of your, none of your
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brothers or sisters have left though, huh?
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AYESHA: No, I only have one brother anyway.
JOHN COX: Okay. Is your, your mom and your dad,
your mother and your father inside the compound?
AYESHA: No, they're not.
JOHN COX: They're not?
AYESHA: Uh-uh.
JOHN COX: Where are they?
AYESHA: They're in Australia.
JOHN COX: They're in Australia. Do you have
anybody outside of the compound — your mom, your dad,
that you would like me to contact and tell them that
you're all right, that your fine, that you're in good
condition and that your brother is?
AYESHA: Um, well my dad practically knows what
I'm doing, so he knows. He knows what's going on.
JOHN COX: He does?
AYESHA: Sure.
JOHN COX: How does he know?
AYESHA: He, he was on the radio the other day.
JOHN COX: From Australia?
AYESHA: Uh-huh.
JOHN COX: Well I'm sure he's concerned as to your
safety and your welfare.
AYESHA: Oh, I'm sure, but —
JOHN COX: How, how long do you intend to stay in
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there?
AYESHA: As long as, you know? God's the one in
charge, so --
JOHN COX: God's the one in charge?
AYESHA: Oh yeah.
JOHN COX: So you're going to wait for God to tell
David when it's time to leave, huh?
AYESHA: Sure.
JOHN COX: Okay. But you know that you can leave
any time you want.
AYESHA: Yeah, I would ' a left —
JOHN COX: Now is —
AYESHA: — a long time ago if I wanted to.
JOHN COX: — is David God?
AYESHA: Huh?
JOHN COX: Is David God?
AYESHA: Aaa — it says we're all sons of God, so,
says we're all God's, Psalms 82.
AYESHA; Well that's like saying I'm God, isn't
it? We are children of God. But I asked you, is David
God?
AYESHA: Is David God?
JOHN COX: Yeah.
AYESHA: Yeah!
JOHN COX: Okay. So when David tells you you can
leave, you can leave, is that correct?
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AYESHA: But, I have —
JOHN COX; And David has said all of you can
leave.
AYESHA : ( Laughs )
JOHN COX: You’re free to leave.
AYESHA: Yeah, I have a choice.
JOHN COX: You do.
AYESHA: Yeah.
JOHN COX: And you're choosing to stay in there,
is that correct?
AYESHA: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Okay.
AYESHA: I'm pregnant you see, so —
JOHN COX: You are?
AYESHA: Yeah.
JOHN COX: How far along are you?
AYESHA: How far along?
JOHN COX: Yeah.
AYESHA: The — (pauses) let me — wait, sorry,
it's been, my calendar’s kinda been mixed up, but it's
been about —
JOHN COX: Seven, eight months?
AYESHA; Yeah, roughly.
JOHN COX: Who’s, who's going to be the father of
this child?
AYESHA: Huh?
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JOHN COX: Who's going to be the father of the
child? Who's the lucky man?
AYESHA: David.
JOHN COX: Well isn't that great?
AYESHA: Yeah.
JOHN COX: So you're going to have another one of
God's children, huh?
AYESHA: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: Good, good. Now, you expect that
you're probably a month away from having your child,
huh? Sometime within the next month?
AYESHA: Roughly, roughly.
JOHN COX: Yeah. You — you've never had a child
before?
AYESHA: Yeah, I've got, I've got a child now.
JOHN COX: You do?
AYESHA: Yeah.
JOHN COX: In there with you?
AYESHA: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: Who's that?
AYESHA: Who's that?
JOHN COX: Who is that?
AYESHA: Startle.
JOHN COX: Startle?
AYESHA: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Tell me how you spell Startle, Ayesha.
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AYESHA: Startle, it's just the word startle.
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S-T-A-R-T-A — T-L-E.
JOHN COX: S-T-A-R-T-L-E?
AYESHA: Startle Koresh.
JOHN COX: Startle Koresh?
AYESHA: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: And how old is Startle?
AYESHA: She's roughly a year and a half.
JOHN COX: How's she doing, okay?
AYESHA: Yeah, she's doing fine, as long as she's
got me.
JOHN COX: She's a healthy little girl?
AYESHA: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: That's good, that's good.
AYESHA: Except she's a, lacking some milk.
JOHN COX: Well I'm sure she is. How come you
don't have any milk in there?
AYESHA: Because we asked, we —
JOHN COX: No, no, no. I'm saying why don't you
have milk in there?
AYESHA: Why don't we have milk?
JOHN COX; Yeah. You have refrigerators, I'm
sure, in there, huh?
AYESHA: You guys didn't send us any milk that's
why we don't have any.
JOHN COX: No but I'm saying, you must have
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refrigeration in there and, and things with a —
AYESHA: But wait a minute —
JOHN COX: — orange juice and apple juice and
milk and all of these, you know, products of life —
you must have things in there to have well-balanced
meals .
AYESHA: So the reason why you haven't sent us any
milk is cause you think we have milk.
JOHN COX: No, I'm just asking you why you didn't
— you just ran out of milk?
AYESHA: Yeah, we don't have any milk for the
baby .
JOHN COX: Well do you understand that we told
David that we would send him six gallons of milk, the
milk is probably no more than ten or fifteen minutes
away, he can have six gallons of milk, if he wants six
gallons of milk. And the only thing he has to do in
return is to let two of the children come out. And if
two of the children come out, six gallons of milk go
in, it's as simple as that.
AYESHA TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: If two of the
children come out, six gallons of milk go in.
JOHN COX: Do you understand that? Hello?
AYESHA: Well, he said kiss my ass.
JOHN COX: Well I kind of expected something like
that from him.
AYESHA: I thought —
JOHN COX; But I really didn't, I really didn't
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3 expect he'd say it that way.
4 AYESHA: Well I thought he sent a thousand bucks
5 out there, for, for six gallons of milk.
6 JOHN COX: He, he sent a, he sent a thousand
7 dollars out? I'm sure that money is, is probably being
8 used to take care of those youngsters.
9 AYESHA: Yeah but we also asked for, for six
10 gallons of milk with that money.
11 AYESHA TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSO: And didn't you have
12 three kids already out there for six gallons of milk?
13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Indiscernible).
14 JOHN COX: Hey, hey, Ayesha. Hello?
15 AYESHA: Yeah.
16 JOHN COX: Now it was my understanding that the
17 money is to — was to take care of the utility bills
18 and other bills that had been incurred out there and,
19 and, I'm not going to get into an argument with you,
20 I'm not —
21 AYESHA: Uh-huh.
22 JOHN COX: — going to get into a, you know, a big
23 dialogue with you —
24 AYESHA: Uh-huh.
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JOHN COX: — the, the solution is, if two
youngsters want to come out of there, six gallons of
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milk will come in. That's it. It's as simple as that.
And that's it. Okay?
AYESHA: But we —
JOHN COX: Do you understand that?
AYESHA: I can hear what you're saying but we sent
Kevin out there to already get that milk.
JOHN COX: I'm unaware of any children being sent
out to specifically get milk.
AYESHA: Well okay, we've already discussed this,
I guess —
JOHN COX: we have.
AYESHA: — (Indiscernible) to discuss it more.
JOHN COX: Sure — let me ask you something. Do
you know David Thibodeau or Jeff Little or Margarita
Vega?
AYESHA: Do I know them?
JOHN COX: Yeah.
AYESHA: Sure.
JOHN COX: Or Sherri Jewell?
AYESHA: Why you asking this?
JOHN COX: Because I asked David earlier to speak
to these people and I asked Steven earlier to speak to
these people and he said that he would make
arrangements for me to speak to them, so, you want to
see if you can get one of those people on the telephone
with me?
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AYESHA: So if Steve said he'd make arrangements,
well I'm sure he's going to get into that.
JOHN COX: Yeah well we had decided to make those
arrangements where we had determined, we had agreed
upon that last night. And I know they're really not
that far away.
AYESHA: Wait a minute.
JOHN COX: You know it doesn't take 24 hours to
walk that far.
AYESHA: Okay wait one moment.
JOHN COX : Okay .
AYESHA TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: He said that
(Indiscernible) .
UNIDENTIFIED MALE IN BACKGROUND: (Indiscernible)
to make up his mind (Indiscernible).
AYESHA: Okay, well do you want to talk to the
women with babies or the other people?
JOHN COX: Hey, I'm happy to talk to anyone — but
the reason I mentioned those names to you —
AYESHA: Uh-huh.
JOHN COX: — and there were some other names too
-- that people had called and enquired as to their
welfare. But I want to, I want to talk to everybody,
sure, and see how they're doing, and how, how
everything's going. But I just mentioned it because
David and Steven had both agreed that I could talk to
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those people.
AYESHA: Yeah, okay.
JOHN COX: So that's one of the reasons that I
want to them so that I can tell their relatives that
yes I did talk to them and that they're doing fine.
And that they're in there because they care to be in
there.
AYESHA: Uh-huh. Well I'm sure you'll get around
to them .
JOHN COX: I'm sorry — what?
AYESHA: I'm sure you'll get around to them.
JOHN COX: Well I hope so. And look, you take
care of yourself and you take care of your little
daughter, huh?
AYESHA: Well, I hope that can be done with a —
JOHN COX: Well it's your choice, you know, it's
real easy, it's your choice. You're staying in there
because you say you want to stay in there.
AYESHA: Yes.
JOHN COX: I hope you'll, I hope you'll decide
eventually to come out and that David will give you the
word —
AYESHA: Well it's just —
JOHN COX: — to come out.
AYESHA: — one thing I don't understand is just,
just a simple thing, no kids or kids —
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JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
AYESHA: — why can't we get just six gallons of
milk?
JOHN COX: You can — what did I tell you? Huh?
How easy —
AYESHA: But kids or no kids, it's just that —
JOHN COX: — I told you how easy it would be.
You can get all the milk you want and all the juice you
want and all the blankets and clothing and fresh
clothes and sanitary conditions you want if you walk
down that road. Six gallons of milk, two children,
that's simple.
AYESHA: Okay.
JOHN COX: Okay?
AYESHA: Well —
JOHN COX: There'S no sense arguing about it, I
mean it's as, it's as simple as that, and, and, I can't
tell you anything else.
AYESHA: Well there's no sense in arguing,
otherwise, I mean —
JOHN COX : No .
AYESHA: — I'm not getting anywhere right now --
JOHN COX: Hey, just understand —
AYESHA: — just forget it.
JOHN COX: — just understand that we love you all
in there and we hope things work out.
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AYESHA: You think I can believe that you re —
love us all in here?
JOHN COX: You bet, you bet.
AYESHA: I don’t think so.
JOHN COX: Why not?
AYESHA: I don't think, I mean, look what you guys
got out there, come on.
JOHN COX: Look what you —
AYESHA: And what you started out there.
JOHN COX: — hey, look what you guys got in
there.
AYESHA: Gosh.
JOHN COX: How many churches have things like that
inside of them? How many sanctuaries have weapons
inside of them? None that I've ever been in my life.
AYESHA: Well —
JOHN COX: I've never been in a Baptist church or
a Catholic church or a Presbyterian, Episcopalian, any
church that had weapons inside of it, ever, ever, ever.
AYESHA: Yeah but who would, who would put —
JOHN cox : Huh?
AYESHA: — Bradley tanks up against a house like
this when they don't even take them to the war.
JOHN COX: The people that want to protect
innocent people on the outside.
AYESHA: Oh good grief.
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JOHN COX: Those are the people. The people that
are sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United
States, those are the people. You, what you don't
understand that there are hundreds of on-lookers and
media people, not that far away, that they're all
trying to get their story, right? They're all curious
to see what's going on.
AYESHA: Well —
JOHN COX: And we have a sworn obligation to
protect those people and to protect you and to protect
the other people in there. You can't imagine how many
people are contacting and saying how they would like to
come up here and straighten this thing out and that ' s
wrong. That's not, that's not right. We've got a
system of laws in this country and we're all
responsible for it. You, me, and everyone else —
AYESHA: Soon —
JOHN COX: — are answerable.
AYESHA: — well soon everybody will find out who
really is responsible for every single thing.
JOHN COX: Well the only way it's going to be —
that word will be spread is for someone to come out and
discuss it. That's the only way it's going to happen.
Actions aren't going to spread the word. Dialogue is
going to spread the word. Conversation is going to
spread the word. And that's what I'm hoping that will
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happen. And I know that's what you hope will happen,
isn't it?
AYESHA : Well —
JOHN COX: You don't wish any harm to anyone, do
you?
AYESHA: Pardon?
JOHN COX: You don't wish harm to anyone, do you?
AYESHA: Harm? Of course we don't wish harm.
JOHN COX: Well I don't wish any harm to you, I
wish you well, I really do. I'm saying that very
sincerely.
AYESHA: I wish everybody would be concerned about
learning the seven seals, that's what I wish. I mean
JOHN COX: Well we told David that, you know,
he's, he's the one that's got that answer. And that if
he wants to discuss it, with not only me, and he wants
to discuss it with others and he wants to discuss it
with religious people, the media, and other people that
he would like to understand the seven seals, all he has
to do is come out and they will understand it.
Otherwise, the only people that are going to understand
about the seven seals are you few people that are
inside there, huh?
AYESHA: Well either way, everbody's going to know
the seven seals, so, you know.
JOHN COX: They are?
AYESHA: Sure.
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3 JOHN COX: How's it going to happen? How are we
4 going to know the seven seals?
5 AYESHA: Well all the prophesies tell you —
6 JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
7 AYESHA: — you know, I mean, if you would — I'm
8 sure you've been — I think you're the one that had the
9 long study last night.
10 JOHN COX: Did I ever.
11 AYESHA: So. I mean, except maybe you're probably
12 not listening, but, I don't know.
13 JOHN COX: Well it's — what you don't understand
14 is it's difficult for me to grasp. Did you grasp all
15 of this in one study lesson?
16 AYESHA: (Laughs.)
17 JOHN COX: Do you want to explain the seven seals
18 to me?
19 AYESHA: Well it's just that dogs can't learn new
20 tricks, you know?
21 JOHN COX: Pardon me?
22 AYESHA: It's hard to learn new tricks.
23 JOHN COX; What did you say?
24 AYESHA: What's that expression again?
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JOHN COX: I don't know, what is the expression?
AYESHA: Old dogs can't learn new tricks.
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JOHN COX: Oh really? What are we into name
calling now?
AYESHA: No I'm not calling you names.
JOHN COX: Huh? I just asked you —
AYESHA: It's just an expression.
JOHN COX: — I just asked you if you know the
seven seals.
AYESHA: If I know the seven seals?
JOHN COX: Yeah.
AYESHA: Well, first of all. Revelation 5 says
only the Lamb can reveal it so he's the only one that
knows it and he's the one that reveals it to us.
JOHN COX: Well then why do you expect me to know
them?
AYESHA: Well, I don't expect — I didn't say
that.
JOHN COX: (Laughs)
AYESHA: I didn't expect you, you know, you got to
listen, but —
JOHN COX: I think we're playing stump the band
here, aren't we Alicia (sic)?
AYESHA: Ayesha . Sorry, Ayesha.
JOHN COX: With several spellings. You expect me
to understand in one reading with David the answer to
the seven seals and how long have you been in there
with him? And you tell me that you don't understand
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it.
AYESHA: I didn't say I didn't understand the
seven seals.
JOHN COX: Do you know the seven seals?
AYESHA: We know what has been, yeah, we know what
has been revealed, of course.
JOHN COX: Well then explain them to me.
AYESHA: Explain them to you?
JOHN COX: Yeah.
AYESHA: David's just been explaining to you all
that night and everything.
JOHN COX: Huh? Well you said that I should know
this in one easy lesson from David, didn't you?
AYESHA: No, I didn't —
JOHN COX: And how long have you been in there.
AYESHA: — say that. I didn't say that.
JOHN COX: See it's, it's difficult for me to
comprehend some of this because it's new to me.
AYESHA: Oh, okay,
JOHN COX: And I'm sure it was new to you at one
time too, wasn't it?
AYESHA: Of course.
JOHN COX: Well, I'm no different. And if you
know the seven seals, I'd be interested in you telling
me about them.
AYESHA TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: He wants me to
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tell him about the seven seals.
JOHN COX : Huh?
AYESHA: Okay let me tell you what books they're
found in.
JOHN COX: Go ahead.
AYESHA: Okay, the first seal. Psalm — it's found
in Psalms —
JOHN COX: Now I don't want somebody to be giving
you this stuff, I want you to tell me, okay?
AYESHA: Yeah, that, that's what I'm doing.
JOHN COX: And not what someone else is telling
you. I want you to tell me.
AYESHA; Well it's just simply, I'm just telling
you what the book says —
JOHN COX: Go ahead.
AYESHA: — (Indiscernible) you know what I mean?
JOHN COX: Go ahead. Go ahead. Hello?
AYESPIA: Okay.
JOHN COX: I got a funny feeling somebody's
prompting you here, huh?
AYESHA: Somebody's what?
JOHN COX: Prompting you.
AYESHA: Prompting me? No, they're not.
JOHN COX: Telling you what to say.
AYESHA: No they're not telling me what to say.
JOHN COX: Well then why don't you just keep
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talking to me.
AYESPIA: Somebody's laughing, that's why I'm
trying to — you ready?
JOHN COX: I'm sitting here, just as eager as can
be.
AYESHA: Okay. Psalms 45, the first seal is found
in Psalms 45 in all the psal — psalms, okay?
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
AYESHA TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: (Inaudible)
JOHN COX: I'm listening to you.
AYESHA: What are you going to benefit out of
this?
JOHN COX: Well you told me that I should know the
seven seals and I should be listening and I should
understand this. You might be able to simplify this
entire dialogue, by making it nice and clear to me.
AYESHA: Okay but if I tell you, you're not going
to research for yourself, you just want to listen to
what we say.
JOHN COX: Well, what's wrong with that?
BACKGROUND VOICE: (Inaudible)
AYESHA: What? Somebody wants to talk to you I
just said.
BACKGROUND VOICE: (Inaudible)
AYESHA: (Laughs)
JOHN COX : Hey .
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AYESHA: She's — huh? Yeah.
JOHN COX: You giving up on me?
AYESHA TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: He thinks I'm
giving up on him.
AYESHA: Yeah I'm giving up on you.
JOHN COX: Well I'm sorry to hear about that. But
listen, I love you and we all love you out here and you
take care of yourself and take care of that little
daughter of yours, huh?
AYESHA: Oh —
JOHN COX: And just remember — just remember,
whenever you want to come out, all you got to do is
just walk down the path.
AYESHA: Well I understand that.
JOHN COX: Okay? You be good, huh?
AYESHA: Sure.
JOHN COX: Take care of yourself.
AYESHA: I wish you would too.
JOHN COX: I will.
AYESHA: Here, somebody want to talk to you.
JOHN COX : Okay .
RITA: Hi, John.
JOHN COX: Hi, who's this?
RITA: This is Rita. I spoke with you last night.
JOHN COX: Rita you did, didn't you?
RITA: Yes I did.
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JOHN COX: How you doing?
RITA: Fine.
JOHN COX: How you feeling?
RITA: Fine.
JOHN COX : Great .
RITA: I was just going to tell you, you know,
there 'd be a whole lot more people around here that'd
be willing to speak to you if you wouldn't twist and
turn everything that's said. You know, by the time it
gets on TV, it's not at all the way it really is.
JOHN COX: Okay, tell me what you want me to say
on TV.
RITA: I don't want you to say anything. I'm just
saying —
JOHN COX: Well I'm not saying it on TV anyhow,
they —
RITA: (Inaudible) said, and what's being done.
JOHN COX: — are saying it on TV. But you tell
me —
RITA: Well you’re, you're the negotiator, though.
I mean, the information is coming from whoever is on
the other end of this phone line.
JOHN COX: Well tell me what you want them to
hear.
RITA: Then give us a phone line.
JOHN COX: Tell me what you don't want heard.
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RITA: We don't care what is heard —
JOHN COX: Or what you do want heard.
RITA: — we don't care what's heard out there as
long as it's the truth.
JOHN COX: Rita, Rita —
RITA: I mean —
JOHN COX; — listen to me real clearly, okay?
RITA: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Listen to me. You know the phone line
you ' re talking on?
RITA: Yeah.
JOHN COX: That's the phone line. Okay?
RITA: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: That ended that discussion, didn't it?
That is the phone — this is the phone line. There's
not going to be any phone line to the press.
RITA: Yeah, we're well aware of that, that's what
I'm saying —
JOHN COX: Okay so why do you raise the issue?
RITA: — so what's the point anybody here even
talking to you?
JOHN COX : Huh?
RITA: Because that's what I'm saying. You are
the phone line, exactly.
JOHN COX: I'm not twisting anything.
RITA: Oh! That'S a bunch of crap.
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JOHN COX: What am I twisting?
RITA: David requested that milk was sent in here
and then they're saying that he renegged on his
negotiation — that wasn't —
JOHN COX: Listen, listen to me.
RITA: — that wasn't the facts at all.
JOHN COX: Do you know the facts?
RITA: Yeah, yeah. I was sitting here, matter of
fact, when he was talking to you.
JOHN COX: When he was talking to who?
RITA: You. Or Dick, or whoever.
JOHN COX: Well wait a minute now, get the facts.
Who was he talking to?
RITA: Hey. The negotiators, okay?
JOHN COX: Now I talked to him last night about
the milk. Okay?
RITA: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: And there have been other discussions
with him about the milk. And let me tell you what the
bottom line is about the milk. And I'm not going to
argue with you and I'm not going to profess one side,
I'm not going to profess another side. You can have
six gallons of milk if two children come out. That's
RITA: Naa, I don't think that's a —
JOHN COX: Listen to me —
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RITA: — good deal from the start.
JOHN COX; — listen to me. I'm not going to
argue with you —
RITA: Well that's what I'm saying —
JOHN COX; — I'm not going to get mad.
RITA: — I'm not going to argue with me, matter
of fact, I don't even want to talk to you anymore.
JOHN COX: Well fine, it's been a pleasure.
RITA TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSONS; Any, anybody want
to talk to this guy? Naa. No, I don't want to talk to
him anymore.
RITA; No, it don't look like anybody here wants
to talk to you at this point.
JOHN COX: Listen Rita, listen to me. I talked to
Steven last night. I talked — is Steven around?
RITA: Yeah, he's here but that's what I'm saying,
I asked everybody that's around here —
JOHN COX; Tell Steven I want to talk to him.
RITA: — nobody wants to talk —
JOHN COX; Tell Steven I want to talk to him.
RITA: Oh wait a minute. Star's wanting to talk to
you .
JOHN COX : Who?
RITA: Hang on a second. Star.
JOHN COX: Where — Star?
STAR : Hi .
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JOHN COX: Bobby and who?
STAR : Cyrus .
JOHN COX: Cyrus. Do you know how old they are?
STAR : No .
JOHN COX: Are they bigger than you or are they
littler than you?
STAR: Bobby's littler than me, but Cyrus is
bigger than me.
JOHN COX: He is? He doesn't pick on you though,
does he?
STAR : Huh?
JOHN COX: He doesn't pick on you though, does he?
STAR : No .
JOHN COX: That's good. That's good.
STAR : Bobby ' s a baby .
JOHN COX: Bobby's a baby? A little tiny baby?
STAR : He's one .
JOHN COX: He's one. You mean he's still wearing
diapers?
STAR : Yes .
JOHN COX: He does, huh? But you don't.
STAR : Two .
JOHN COX: He's two?
STAR: Who is, he still wear, wears diapers.
JOHN COX: You said Bobby is a baby?
STAR: Yeah.
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JOHN COX: And he's one year old?
STAR : Yeah .
JOHN COX: Does he still wear diapers — he's a
little tiny baby, huh?
STAR: He wears diapers.
JOHN COX: He does? And you're a big girl?
STAR: Yeah.
JOHN COX : Well that ' s good . That ' s good . How ' ve
you been, okay?
STAR: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Huh?
STAR: (No answer)
JOHN COX: Would you like to come — do you have
any brothers or sisters that are outside? That have
left?
STAR: (Inaudible)
JOHN COX : Huh?
STAR: I said (inaudible)
JOHN COX: Twenty?
STAR: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Would you like to be with them?
STAR : What?
JOHN COX: Would you like to be with them and play
with them?
STAR: Play with who?
JOHN COX: The boys and girls that have left.
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STAR: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Well all you have to do is tell Rachel
that you would like to be with them and she can arrange
it okay?
STAR: Yeah.
JOHN COX: You be a good girl, huh? Let me talk
to Steven.
STAR : Steven?
JOHN COX: Yes.
STAR: Do you mean Steve?
JOHN COX: Steve, yeah. Let me talk to Steve.
STAR: Steve. Steve. He wants to talk to you.
Here he comes .
JOHN COX : Okay .
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN COX: Hey guy.
STEVE: Hey, what's happening?
JOHN COX: Short prayer meeting. I know there'll
be another though.
STEVE: Short prayer meeting?
JOHN COX: But I know there'll be another.
STEVE : Okay .
JOHN COX: I got a feeling. He said he was up
walking around, feeling a little better.
STEVE: I guess he was. I wasn't -- I was down
around some of the other people today —
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JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
STEVE: — and they told me that he got up.
JOHN COX: Yeah. That's great, huh?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Like I said, love to see him get up and
walk out of there, huh?
STEVE: Exactly.
JOHN COX: Wouldn't we all?
STEVE: I hope so.
JOHN COX: Listen, am I going to be able to talk
to, to David Thibodeau or Marguerite vega, or —
STEVE: Let me, let me throw their names out here
and let me see if they will come around. Just a
moment .
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
(Pause)
JOHN COX TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Did you bring
it?
JOHN COX: Hello? Hello?
STEVE: Yeah, they went looking for them.
JOHN COX: Oh, okay. I didn't know if you had
talked to those people today or if —
STEVE: Sure, I did, and I —
JOHN COX: — David talked to them.
STEVE: — yeah, in fact I talked to quite a
number of them. I said you or Dick would be on the
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phone and you'd like to talk with them and they had no
problem with that.
JOHN COX: Yeah, basically just —
UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: Da-da?
JOHN COX: Somebody's little one calling Da-da,
huh?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Basically just to, to let some other
people — give them a little assurance that everything
is okay.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN COX: Listen, earlier, and, and it had to
have happened before I got here, must have happened
when Dick was talking. It's like a little note here
that something about Sita bringing some photographs
out?
STEVE: Yeah, we were talking about taking some
pictures and sending the pictures with the names, ages
and all that out.
JOHN COX: Oh, I thought they had already taken
some pictures or something.
STEVE: No, not yet.
JOHN COX; No?
STEVE: It hasn’t happened yet.
JOHN COX: Okay. Well —
STEVE: But we'll be working on that, that was —
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JOHN COX : Okay .
STEVE: David's suggestion.
JOHN COX : Okay .
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Yeah?
STEVE: Oh yeah, I guess, David just passed on to
me that —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
STEVE: — tomorrow, probably maybe in the late
morning hours we'll probably go bury Pete out front,
Pete Gent out front there.
JOHN COX: Okay. Okay. But just be sure that, you
know, that you communicate, if I'm still here, with me
or —
STEVE: Well I'm just. I'll tell you now, just a
minute — I'll even tell you what time it 'll be .
JOHN COX : Okay .
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: What time do you
want to go bury him?
STEVE: It'll be right about 10 or 11 o'clock.
JOHN COX: Ten or eleven?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN COX: And whereabouts?
STEVE: Probably out front maybe — yeah, right
out front.
JOHN COX: Like out in front of the flagpole?
STEVE: Exactly, out in front.
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STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Probably what —
are you thinking about maybe on the other side of the
road right here?
STEVE TO JOHN COX: Yeah, right on the other side
of the little dirt road that's in front of the
compound , whatever it ' s called .
JOHN COX: Okay, okay. Well that's fine.
STEVE TO MARGUERITE: Oh, Marguerite, someone here
would like to talk to you. His name is John.
MARGUERITE: (Indiscernible)
STEVE: You don't want to talk to him? why not?
MARGUERITE: (Indiscernible)
STEVE: He seems anxious to talk to you.
BACKGROUND VOICES (Indiscernible)
JOHN COX : Hey .
MARGUERITE: Hey?
JOHN COX: Hi. Is this Marguerite?
MARGUERITE: Sure am.
JOHN COX: Listen, I was talking to, to Steve and
apparently one of the other fellows earlier today
talked —
MARGUERITE; Um-hum.
JOHN COX: — to David about you bringing some
photographs out here and I think they were going to try
to make some — or that was Sita, I guess.
MARGUERITE: Yeah, you didn't talk to me — talked
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• •
to Sita.
JOHN COX: Yeah, I'm sorry.
MARGUERITE: Yeah, um-hum.
JOHN COX: I haven't talked to you before?
MARGUERITE: No, you've never talked to me before.
JOHN COX: Well how are you?
MARGUERITE; I'm fine, thank you. How are you?
JOHN COX: I'm great, I'm great.
MARGUERITE : That ' s good .
JOHN COX: What's your last name Marguerite?
MARGUERITE; My last name is —
JOHN COX: I love your first name.
MARGUERITE: You love my first name?
JOHN COX: Yeah, I really do.
MARGUERITE: Well I love my first name too.
JOHN COX: That's great. What's your last name.
MARGUERITE: My last name is Ferreira.
JOHN COX: Let me see. Now I was just thinking —
we had some people call in and wanted to make sure that
people, friends and relatives were all right on the
inside. There was a Marguerite Vega, I guess, in
there.
MARGUERITE: Oh, yeah.
JOHN COX: Do you know her?
MARGUERITE: Yeah, that's me too.
JOHN COX: Oh. Well listen —
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• #
MARGUERITE: It's Ferreira-Vega •
JOHN COX; You got two last names?
MARGUERITE: Yeah, I always stick to my last — to
my maiden name plus my married name.
JOHN COX; Okay.
MARGUERITE: Don't you?
JOHN COX: I stick to one —
MARGUERITE : ( Laughs )
JOHN COX; — one name, John Cox, okay?
MARGUERITE: John Cox, okay.
JOHN COX: Yeah. And that's it.
MARGUERITE: You don't have a middle name?
JOHN COX: Well Edward, how's that?
MARGUERITE: Well that's good.
JOHN COX : Okay .
MARGUERITE: (Indiscernible)
JOHN COX: But your name is Ferreira?
MARGUERITE: Yeah.
JOHN COX: How do you spell that?
MARGUERITE: F-E, double R,-E-I-R-A.
JOHN COX: E-R-I-A?
MARGUERITE: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Okay. Let me tell you. There was an
Ursula —
MARGUERITE: Yeah that's my daughter.
JOHN COX: Pearman (Phonetic). Is that —
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1 MARGUERITE; Ursula Gehrman.
2 JOHN COX: G-E-H-R-M-A-N?
3 MARGUERITE; R-M-A-N, yeah. You pronounce it as
4 Gavermon (Phonetic).
5 JOHN COX: Gavermon?
6 MARGUERITE: Um-hum.
7 JOHN COX: She's your daughter.
8 MARGUERITE: That'S my daugher, yeah.
9 JOHN COX: Well she called.
10 MARGUERITE: Um-hum.
11 JOHN COX: And she just wanted to know how you
12 were doing —
13 MARGUERITE: I'm —
14 JOHN COX: — and she wanted to make sure that you
15 were all right and we just want to be in a position to
16 say, hey, we talked to you, you are doing okay and you
17 are doing fine, huh?
18 MARGUERITE; Yeah, I'm doing fine. You can tell
19 her I'm, I'm okay. Tell her —
20 JOHN COX; I will.
21 MARGUERITE: — I don't — not to worry about me,
22 you know?
23 JOHN COX: Okay. Now.
2 4 MARGUERITE : Um-hum .
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JOHN COX: She lives in Hawaii, right?
MARGUERITE; Yeah. We used to live in Hawaii
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until we came.
JOHN COX: But she lives here, huh?
MARGUERITE: Yeah, she did.
JOHN COX: I mean she does.
MARGUERITE: Yeah she does, she lives in Hawaii.
JOHN COX: Yeah, that's, that's what I mean.
That's what I understand, she's in Hawaii now. The —
is there any message you want me to give her?
MARGUERITE: Just tell her I love her very much
and tell her to try and get her sister.
JOHN COX: Try and do what?
MARGUERITE: To get her little sister.
JOHN COX : Okay .
MARGUERITE: You know, because you know, I can
send my little girl out. Her name is Joanne.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
MARGUERITE: And I was promised that she can go to
her sister.
JOHN COX: You bet. It's probably going to
happen, okay? What we're doing is we're keeping all
the youngsters together right now —
MARGUERITE: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: — so that we make sure that they're
well fed, they're well cared for —
MARGUERITE: Well —
JOHN COX: — and that they don't have any, you
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know, we're giving them — getting them medical
checkups, make sure they don't have any, any problems.
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MARGUERITE: Oh, they don't — they're pretty good
kids .
JOHN COX: Oh, hey, every —
MARGUERITE: We have lots of kids here —
JOHN COX: — every one that I saw come out here
was just great kids —
MARGUERITE : Yeah .
JOHN COX: — and, and —
MARGUERITE: We still have kids here that, you
know, they have, they need to drink milk and
everything, you know?
JOHN COX: You want to know the whole story behind
that though, huh?
MARGUERITE: Yeah, sure.
JOHN COX: That we've got all the milk in the
world right outside of here.
MARGUERITE : That ' s good .
JOHN COX: And that — got a real simple procedure
MARGUERITE: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: That if two youngsters come out, six
gallons of milk go in.
MARGUERITE : Well —
JOHN COX: It's as easy as that.
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MARGUERITE: I'm not the person to bargain with.
JOHN COX: I'm sor — oh I know that. I'm not
trying to bargain with you, but I'm just want to let
you know —
MARGUERITE: Yeah.
JOHN COX: — that that's the deal. And also, do
you have any other children in there with you?
MARGUERITE: No, I don't.
JOHN COX: You're, you're in there by yourself
now, huh?
MARGUERITE; Yeah, me and my husband.
JOHN COX: Your husband? What's your husband's
name?
MARGUERITE : Neal .
JOHN COX: Neal?
MARGUERITE: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: I talked to him last night.
MARGUERITE: Yeah, I know you did.
JOHN COX: Yeah. Well we had a nice conversation
— he — where's he from, Australia, New Zealand?
MARGUERITE: New Zealand.
JOHN COX; Yeah, I thought he had a little Cockney
accent there, or something. Nice fellow.
MARGUERITE; He's very nice.
JOHN COX; Well that's great. Well, you know, if
-- David told me that all of you are free to leave if
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you want to leave.
MARGUERITE: That's true. That is very true.
JOHN COX: All of the adults, all of the children,
because he said that he's waiting for —
MARGUERITE: God to give him —
JOHN COX: God's word, yet he has told me he's
God, which is, you know, kind of hard for me to grasp,
sometimes .
MARGUERITE: No —
JOHN COX: Not that he is —
MARGUERITE: John, let me tell you something —
JOHN COX: Go ahead.
MARGUERITE: — David has never built any gate in
our places , you know?
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
MARGUERITE: This whole area has no fence —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
MARGUERITE: — no gates. And he has never once
tells us that you can't leave.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
MARGUERITE: As a matter of fact he had always
told us, if you want to leave any time, any place, if
you need money —
JOHN COX: Yeah.
MARGUERITE: — I'll give you the money --
JOHN COX: Yeah.
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MARGUERITE: — you can go wherever you want to go
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
MARGUERITE: — like in my case, if I wanted to go
back to Hawaii —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
MARGUERITE: — he would give me a ticket, he
would buy me anything and I can go anything (sic) —
anytime I want.
JOHN COX: That's great.
MARGUERITE: And that — you know, at the front,
as a matter of fact the front door where you park your
tanks? There's no gate there.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
MARGUERITE: That's why you guys could come in.
Anytime you want.
JOHN COX: That's great.
MARGUERITE: It was the same thing with David,
with us, all of us, we stay here on our own choice.
JOHN COX: Well that — you know that's exactly
what I, what I wanted to get clear because as long as
you understand that you can leave, and you and Neal can
leave and be with Joanne anytime you want, because you
know, parents have a certain responsibility towards the
welfare and upbringing of their children —
MARGUERITE : That ' s right .
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JOHN COX: — but as long as you understand —
MARGUERITE: We do. We understand —
JOHN COX: that, that you can leave and you care
to stay there, that's fine. But that's your choice,
isn't it?
MARGUERITE: That'S right, it's our choice and we
both want to stay in here.
JOHN COX: But just remember, somebody else is
caring for your children now, huh?
MARGUERITE: Well —
JOHN COX: And we’re going to get the children, as
soon as we can —
MARGUERITE : Okay .
JOHN COX: — to your daughter. How old is your
daughter?
MARGUERITE: My eldest daughter is twenty-five.
Well, she's going to —
JOHN COX: I'm talking about the daughter —
MARGUERITE: — be twenty- five.
JOHN COX: — that, that called, Ursula.
MARGUERITE: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Huh? She's twenty-five?
MARGUERITE: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Okay. She's married and got a family?
MARGUERITE: No, she's engaged and I think she's
going to get married.
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JOHN COX: Yeah. But she'd be in a good position
to take care of Joanne?
MARGUERITE: Oh yeah, she makes pretty good, she
makes good money.
JOHN COX: Super, super.
MARGUERITE: Well her fiance is a DeeJay, that's
why, you know?
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
MARGUERITE : Um-hum .
JOHN COX: Well that's good.
MARGUERITE: You know that, did you?
JOHN COX: That her fiance was a DeeJay?
MARGUERITE: Yeah, um-hum.
JOHN COX: I didn’t even know that — whether
she's married, single — all I had was name, you know?
MARGUERITE: I see.
JOHN COX: That I didn't know.
MARGUERITE: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: But, but I feel we have, you know, a
little bit of an obligation to talk to people in there
and let them know that — and, and, particularly —
somebody calls and says —
MARGUERITE: Yeah, well just tell her don't, she
doesn’t have to worry, okay? That's all.
JOHN COX: Sure will —
MARGUERITE: That I'm well taken care of —
46
1 JOHN COX: — and I'll tell her that. I'll tell
2 her that you love her too, huh?
3 MARGUERITE: I — yeah. She knows If I want to
4 leave, anytime I can, I can leave and I —
5 JOHN COX: And I'll also tell her that you'll
6 probably see her pretty soon, huh? Cause —
7 MARGUERITE: Well —
8 JOHN COX: — David said he expects to be —
9 MARGUERITE: That's what we were told.
10 JOHN COX: — walking out of there pretty soon.
11 MARGUERITE: That's what we were told.
12 JOHN COX: Hey he told me that last night and we
13 had a, a nice discussion tonight that he said that he
14 was ready to leave.
15 MARGUERITE: That's good, that's good.
16 JOHN COX: And that is good —
17 MARGUERITE: Yeah, he's —
18 JOHN COX: — you know, because —
19 MARGUERITE: — hopping around, I hope he feels
20 better.
21 JOHN COX: He said he was up moving around a
22 little bit today.
23 MARGUERITE: Yeah, he was, you know.
24 JOHN COX: Well I told him that's great, because
25
the sooner that he gets healthy and the sooner that
he's up on his feet that's the sooner that he's going
to be able to lead all of his children out of there,
isn't it?
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3 MARGUERITE: Amen to that.
4 JOHN COX: You're right. You're right.
5 MARGUERITE: Yeah.
6 JOHN COX: But you're okay? You're healthy?
7 MARGUERITE: I'm fine, I'm good.
8 JOHN COX: Neal's okay?
9 MARGUERITE: Yeah he's good.
10 JOHN COX: You treating him all right?
11 MARGUERITE: We're — I'm treating him? Perfect,
12 perfect.
13 JOHN COX: Yeah, you're his wife, huh?
14 MARGUERITE: Yeah. No other wife would treat him
15 better than I can treat him.
16 JOHN COX; Good, good. Well you tell him I
17 enjoyed talking to him, too, huh?
18 MARGUERITE; Okay. Would that be all then?
19 JOHN COX: Unless you see David Thibodeau around
20 there or Jeff Little, or —
21 MARGUERITE: Jeff Little?
22 JOHN COX: — Sherri Jewel.
23 MARGUERITE: You want to speak to Jeff Little?
24 JOHN COX: Yeah. Is he around there?
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MARGUERITE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Is Jeff
around?
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(Pause)
JOHN COX: Hello? Hello? (Pause) Hello? Hello?
MARGUERITE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Don't take
everything down just because she come over here.
JOHN COX: Hello? (whistles) Hello? (whistles)
(Pause)
JEFF: Hello?
JOHN COX: Hi, who's this?
JEFF: Hi, this —
JOHN COX : Hello?
JEFF: Yeah, I'm still here. The phone —
JOHN COX: Who are you?
JEFF: — does weird things when you touch it.
JOHN COX: I know it does, be careful.
JEFF : { Laughs )
JOHN COX: Who are you?
JEFF: Jeff.
JOHN COX: Jeff Little?
JEFF: Yeah. That's me.
JOHN COX: Let me tell you Jeff, my name's John
Cox .
JEFF: Uh-huh.
JOHN COX: We had somebody by the name of Lonnie
Little call and, and I don't know if that's —
JEFF: Yeah, that's my dad.
JOHN COX: — your dad, your brother — who it is.
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JEFF: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Okay. Well Lonnie called — you know
where he lives?
JEFF: Do I know where he lives?
JOHN COX: Yeah.
JEFF: Yeah I do.
JOHN COX: Where?
JEFF: Galesburg?
JOHN COX: Where?
JEFF : ( Laughs )
JOHN COX: That's, that's not where — the reason
I'm asking, I just want to be sure I'm talking to the
right person, you know? And I've got an address of —
or a city, and a phone number — you know what his
phone number is?
JEFF: Yeah, I do.
JOHN COX: Area code 616?
JEFF: Uh-huh.
JOHN COX: And what are the rest of the digits?
JEFF: Why don't you tell me the last four and
I'll tell you the first three?
JOHN COX: You tell me the first three.
JEFF : ( Laughs )
JOHN COX: I'll tell you the last four.
JEFF: No you tell me the last four first.
JOHN COX: 9-0-9-0.
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JEFF: Oh well, if you've got that, I guess you
got the rest of it.
JOHN COX: What's the rest of it?
JEFF: 6-5.
JOHN COX: Okay pal. I just want to make sure I'm
talking to the right person. And he's your dad, huh?
JEFF: Yeah, he is.
JOHN COX: Well he called —
JEFF: He did huh?
JOHN COX : — and he , and you know , he's
concerned. And what we're doing is we're talking to
some of the folks in there that, that people have
called —
JEFF : Um-hum .
JOHN COX: — about. And so I can say — I can
have somebody make a call and talk to your dad and say
hey, we talked to you, you're doing fine.
JEFF: Right. Yeah, I'm doing fine.
JOHN COX: And, and, and I'm sure he's concerned
or he wouldn't have called.
JEFF: Right, obviously.
JOHN COX: So —
JEFF: Yeah, you can tell him I'm doing good.
JOHN COX: You doing okay?
JEFF: Uh-huh.
JOHN COX: DO you have any — a wife, a brother, a
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sister or children in there with you?
JEFF: Well no, well my brother's live up there.
JOHN COX: Yeah. You're single?
JEFF: Yeah.
JOHN COX: You haven't made the plunge yet, huh?
JEFF : ( Laughs ) No .
JOHN COX: How come? How old are you?
JEFF: Let's see — getting in my thirties, I
guess, low thirties.
JOHN COX: Getting in the low — it's tough to
figure out your age already?
JEFF: Oh yeah, I lose track.
JOHN COX : Huh?
JEFF: I guess I'm getting senile in my old age.
JOHN COX: God I hope not.
JEFF: (Laughs)
JOHN COX: Not, not if your, in your early
thirties. How long you been there?
JEFF: Let's see — geez, long time now.
JOHN COX: Have you really?
JEFF: Since '86, I think?
JOHN COX: Wow. You've been at Mount Carmel since
' 86 ?
JEFF: Well no, no, I haven't been here since
then.
JOHN COX; Yeah.
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JEFF: I've only been here for about the last
year .
JOHN COX: Last year?
JEFF: Yeah.
(Loud baby sound)
JOHN COX: Well — whoa — little one getting
nervous in there. Do you understand —
JEFF: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Hey Jeff —
JEFF: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Do you understand, and I, and I just
want to clarify it with everybody that I'm talking to,
because David told me and Steven told me, David told me
yesterday, David told me again today that, that
everybody in there is free to leave if they care to
leave.
JEFF: Right.
JOHN COX: And that, you know, basically all they
have to do is walk down the road.
JEFF: Sure.
JOHN COX: And that it's my understanding that
those that want to — you know, that those that aren't
leaving it's because they don't care to leave, and, and
JEFF: (Indiscernible)
JOHN COX: — course I, I don't want to put words
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in your mouth —
JEFF: Right, right. It's true in my case, yeah.
JOHN COX: But you care to stay there, right?
JEFF: Sure, yes I do.
JOHN COX: Okay, well I just want you to know that
he said anybody that cares to leave can leave and all
you got to do is walk down the road —
JEFF: That's true.
JOHN COX: — and you'll be well fed and clothed
and taken care of. And, and we had a long chat last
night and, and we've had one this evening, have another
one a little later this evening with David and he said
hey, he's ready to come out. He's just waiting for the
word .
JEFF: I've been listening.
JOHN COX: And I know — I hope he gets healthy
enough — they say he's been hobbling around, he's
getting up on his feet —
JEFF: Yeah.
JOHN COX: — which is a good sign, huh?
JEFF: Yeah.
JOHN COX: That maybe you all will be coming out
of there fairly soon.
JEFF : Should be .
JOHN COX: Well I hope so, huh? But you're doing
okay?
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JEFF: Yes, I am.
JOHN COX: You're healthy, and —
JEFF: Oh, yeah.
JOHN COX: — and that's good, that's good,
because I'll, I'll make sure —
JEFF: Had an allergy attack a few days ago but —
JOHN COX : Huh?
JEFF: — it's over with now.
JOHN COX: An allergy?
JEFF: Yeah (laughs).
JOHN COX: Well what, what — what do you think
that — that soon will mean, huh? Tomorrow, the next
day, next week? I know you're not a prophet.
JEFF: Yeah, no, shoot, I, I couldn't say that.
JOHN COX: But you have any idea?
JEFF: No, actually I don't.
JOHN COX: Just soon — soon, huh?
JEFF: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Well, you know, like we've told them
all, the comforts of home are out here, and, and we
have no animosity towards you as an individual, as a
group or anything else, it's just, it was a difficult
situation and what happened happened, didn't it?
JEFF : Right .
JOHN COX: And you can't turn the clock around on
55
JEFF: Very unfortunate.
JOHN COX; — on what happened. It sure is, pal.
3 For everybody concerned and we're just trying to
4 resolve this thing in nice, calm, peaceful manner —
5 JEFF: Um-hum.
6 JOHN COX: — and hopefully we can.
7 JEFF: That'll be good.
8 JOHN COX: You know? It's my wish, and, and I
9 truly believe that it's David's wish, and -- cause he's
10 a man of the — you know?
11 JEFF: What happened? Are you still there?
12 JOHN COX: Yeah.
13 JEFF: Oh.
14 JOHN COX: Watch it —
15 JEFF: Somebody touched the phone.
16 JOHN COX: — watch those wires!
17 JEFF: It, it's wasn't — it's not even a wire —
18 JOHN COX: Really?
19 JEFF: — if you just kinda look at the phone
20 funny and, and touch it, it goes haywire.
21 JOHN COX: Don't tell me if you look at it it does
22 that.
2 3 JEFF : ( Laughs )
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JOHN COX: It'S going to make me —
JEFF: Maybe, maybe she's got a real strong stare.
JOHN COX: That's going to make me real nervous.
JEFF: Yeah.
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3 JOHN COX: But, I, I will assure you that somebody
4 will contact Lonnie, your —
5 JEFF: That would be good.
6 JOHN COX: — your dad.
7 JEFF: Yeah, okay, that'll be fine.
8 JOHN COX: And, and tell him that you're doing
9 fine, huh?
10 JEFF: Tell him I'm still kicking.
11 JOHN COX: Listen, there were some other people —
12 JEFF: Uh-huh?
13 JOHN COX: — that I talked to both Steve and
14 David about —
15 JEFF: Uh-huh.
16 JOHN COX: And, and they agreed to let me talk to
1 7 them —
18 JEFF: Um-hum.
19 JOHN COX: — and make sure that they were all
20 right. I think there's —
21 JEFF: Do you want to talk to Steve again then and
22 find out or —
23 JOHN COX: Oh sure, sure.
24 JEFF: Okay.
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JOHN COX: That'd be fine. Thanks.
JEFF : All right .
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• •
JOHN COX: Appreciate talking to you.
JEFF: Yeah, you too.
JOHN COX : Okay .
STEVE : Hello?
JOHN COX: Hi guy.
STEVE: Okay, well —
JOHN COX: What'S cooking?
STEVE: Well that's what I was going to ask you.
JOHN COX: Oh, hey. I can tell you what, what was
cooking —
STEVE : All right .
JOHN COX: — for dinner, but you don't want to
hear about it, I'm sure.
STEVE: Too appetizing, huh?
JOHN COX: Yeah, probably. And nothing that you
would be opposed to.
STEVE: Probably not.
JOHN COX: It was not from a forked hoof.
STEVE: Uh-huh.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh or a shelled fish.
STEVE: Hmmm.
JOHN COX: So, it, it was pretty good. Hey, I
enjoyed talking to Marguerite and to Jeff —
STEVE: To Jeff, okay.
JOHN COX: — that was real nice.
STEVE: Let's see, let's see if Thibodeau is
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around here, just a minute.
JOHN COX: Hey — I'd love to talk to him because
he's got a name from my parts —
(Tape 86 ends abruptly)
2
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OP ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
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TAPE #87
3/7/93
8 : 49 p.m. - 9:35 p.m.
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(Tape 87)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John, here's Cyrus.
JOHN COX: Who?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cyrus.
JOHN COX: Sounds like a little one, huh?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, he is.
JOHN COX: How old?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe seven or eight.
JOHN COX: Oh, great.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seven? Seven. Here he
is .
JOHN COX : Great .
CYRUS : Hi .
JOHN COX: Hi. Your name Cyrus?
CYRUS : Yeah .
JOHN COX: And you're seven or eight?
CYRUS : Seven .
JOHN COX: Seven. What's your last name
Cyrus?
CYRUS: Koresh.
JOHN COX: You're one of, one of David's
little children, huh?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Well that's great. You're nice
and healthy?
CYRUS: What did you say?
3
• •
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JOHN COX: You're healthy? Everything's
okay?
CYRUS: I can't hear you.
JOHN COX: My name is John. Can you hear me?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JOHN COX: My name is John, okay?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JOHN COX: You can hear me now? Are you
healthy, everything's okay with you?
CYRUS : Yeah .
JOHN COX: Good. What's your mom's name?
CYRUS : Rachel .
JOHN COX: Rachel's your mom, huh?
CYRUS: Uh-huh.
JOHN COX: Well I talked to your sister then,
huh, didn't I? Star.
CYRUS: Yeah.
JOHN COX: But you're older than Star, huh?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JOHN COX: I asked her how old she was, she
said she wasn't sure but she said that Bobby was
smaller than she was but Cyrus was bigger than she was .
CYRUS: (Laughs)
JOHN COX: That what she said.
CYRUS : She ' s five .
JOHN COX: She's five, huh? She sound like a
cute little girl.
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huh?
8 Bobby.
CYRUS: Yeah.
JOHN COX: But you're bigger than she is,
CYRUS: Yeah, Bobby's very cute too.
JOHN COX: I bet he is, but he's --
CYRUS: It's not a he, it's a girl, it's
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JOHN COX: Bobby's a girl?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Like Barbara, huh? Bobby. Are
you a big little — are you a big boy?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Do you take, do you take care of
your two sisters?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JOHN COX: You're not mean to them now, are
you?
CYRUS : No .
JOHN COX: That's great, that's great. Would
you like to stay in there or would you like to come
out?
CYRUS: Urn — come out.
25
JOHN COX: You would, huh? Well let me tell
you, I hope you do soon and I'd love to see you, and
Star and Rachel and Bobby and all of you come out and
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we ' 11 get you some clean clothes and nice fresh bed and
some good food and take good care of you, you know?
You be a good boy, huh? It sure been good talking to
you. You be good, okay?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Is Steven there?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Okay, you let me talk to Steve.
CYRUS: His name's not Steven, his name is
Steve.
JOHN COX: Okay, I'm sorry. Let me talk to
Steve. And you be a good boy, I enjoyed talking to
you .
CYRUS: You can call him that, or Steve.
JOHN COX : Huh?
CYRUS: YOU can call him Steven or Steve.
JOHN COX ; Okay .
CYRUS: Okay, here he is.
JOHN COX: You be a good boy.
CYRUS TO STEVE: Steve. Steve.
CYRUS TO JOHN COX: Oh he went over there.
JOHN COX: He did? Well who's around there?
CYRUS: My mom's here, my dad's here,
Ayesha's here, Michelle's here, there's a lot of
people. Cathy's here, Rita —
JOHN COX: Michelle's there? How old is
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Michelle?
CYRUS: I don't know.
JOHN COX: You don't? She just a little
girl?
CYRUS: I don't know how old Michelle is, I
just know she's a old girl.
JOHN COX: She's an old girl? Is she older
than you are?
CYRUS: Course. She's a grown-up.
JOHN COX: She's a grown-up?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Well let me talk to Michelle.
CYRUS: Okay I'll let you talk to Michelle.
JOHN COX: Okay.
CYRUS: She doesn't want to talk to you.
JOHN COX: Well how come? She's never talked
to me before.
CYRUS: I don't know.
JOHN COX: Well ask her why.
CYRUS: Want to talk to my mom?
JOHN COX : Sure .
CYRUS: Okay, here she is.
RACHEL: Hello.
JOHN COX: Hey Rachel.
RACHEL : Hi .
JOHN COX: This is John.
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RACHEL :
Oh, this is a different voice. All
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the
others are so similar.
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JOHN COX
: They are?
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RACHEL :
Yeah, you got a very deep voice.
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JOHN COX
: The voices might be similar —
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RACHEL :
Sorry?
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JOHN COX
: The voices might be similar, huh.
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but
the
bodies aren't.
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RACHEL:
Not your voice though.
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JOHN COX
; No? Mine, mine's a little, little
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lower than theirs?
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RACHEL :
Oh much.
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JOHN COX
: Lord, I don't know if that's good
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RACHEL :
What, what happened to Henry?
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JOHN COX
: Well he's around.
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RACHEL :
How come he ' s not on the phone
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anymore?
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JOHN COX:
: He was getting worn out.
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RACHEL :
Oh was he?
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JOHN COX;
: Yeah. He, he —
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RACHEL :
I kinda liked him.
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JOHN COX;
: You did?
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RACHEL :
Yeah.
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JOHN COX:
; Well I tell you, you'll probably
be able
to talk to
him again. He's a nice, he's a nice
guy.
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RACHEL: I might be able to talk to him, but
I don't know —
JOHN COX: We had dinner to —
RACHEL: — what good it'll do because, I
mean, same old thing, you know?
JOHN COX: We had dinner together tonight.
RACHEL: Oh did you?
JOHN COX: Yeah. And it was not anything
that you all would object to.
RACHEL: No pork huh?
JOHN COX: No pork, no pork, no.
RACHEL: Hey can you tell me what those kids
were eating in those photos, what kind of hot dogs they
were?
JOHN COX: You bet. All beef.
RACHEL : Oh really , oh that ' s good .
JOHN COX: Hey we're not going to play around
with anything like that. We, we, we would not abuse
that, believe me. We wouldn't do it and, and we
understand your religion and, and, we accept that. It
wouldn't be a very nice thing to do, would it?
RACHEL: No.
JOHN COX: Oh hey, your religious beliefs are
your religious beliefs and they're your children's
beliefs .
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RACHEL :
So what are you?
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JOHN COX:
What am I?
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RACHEL :
Urn- hum.
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JOHN COX:
I'm a Catholic.
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RACHEL :
Oh, that's what I guessed.
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JOHN COX:
You did?
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RACHEL :
Yeah.
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JOHN COX:
Why because I have a deep voice?
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RACHEL :
( Laughs )
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JOHN COX:
Huh?
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RACHEL: No.
12
JOHN COX:
How come?
13
RACHEL :
No, that's not the reason.
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JOHN COX:
Why did you guess it?
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RACHEL :
Oh, it's a secret.
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JOHN COX:
Why didn't you think — you
didn
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think
that I was a
Baptist, or —
18
RACHEL :
No.
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JOHN COX:
— Methodist or Presbyterian?
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RACHEL :
No.
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JOHN COX:
Well how — how did you guess
22
that?
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RACHEL :
Oh, just my personal opinion.
that '
24
all.
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said?
JOHN COX:
Why — because of something
I
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RACHEL : No , I haven ' t even talked to you
yet. This is the first time. Is this John?
JOHN COX: Yeah.
RACHEL: No, it's the first time I've ever
talked to you.
JOHN COX: See what you been missing out on?
RACHEL : ( Laughs )
JOHN COX: Huh? I tell you, I enjoyed
talking to your kids though, huh?
RACHEL: Yeah, that's my boy.
JOHN COX: And Star?
RACHEL: You talked to her too?
JOHN COX: Yeah, I talked to her a little
while ago. She was funny, she was a real character. I
said how old are you and she says, I'm not, I'm not
sure, but she said —
RACHEL: Is that what she said?
JOHN COX: Yeah, and she said that Bobby is
smaller than she is and Cyrus is bigger than she is .
RACHEL: Really?
JOHN COX: And I said well you're in between
there someplace, huh? And she was just as cute as can
be. She was having fun. And then when I talked to
Cyrus, I said well how old is Star and he said she's
five, she ought to know how old she is.
RACHEL; I'm really surprised she told you
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that .
JOHN COX; Told me what?
RACHEL: That she didn't know how old she was
and that she's smaller than Cyrus — smaller than Cyrus
and bigger than Bobby.
JOHN COX: Well is she?
RACHEL: Yeah that's true but she knows how
old she is.
JOHN COX: She's — but she's not talkative
or something, usually?
RACHEL: Oh, a, someone just said that she
said she thinks she's five — do you remember that?
Did she say that?
JOHN COX: Yeah, she did.
RACHEL: I think I'm five, yeah —
JOHN COX: Well that was a good think, huh?
RACHEL; Yeah, she's going to be six soon.
JOHN COX: Oh.
RACHEL: Actually both of them are about
ready to have a birthday.
JOHN COX; Really?
RACHEL: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: Going to have a cake too?
RACHEL: In here, I don't think so.
JOHN COX: Well — I hope you can. I hope
you can have some little party for them or something.
12
1 huh?
2 RACHEL : Well , we'll see what happens .
3 JOHN COX : Do you — I've never spoken to you
4 before — what's your last name Rachel?
5
RACHEL :
My name is Rachel (pauses)
, well it
6
depends ,
I could use various last names .
7
JOHN COX;
: Is Koresh one of them?
8
RACHEL :
Uh-huh .
9
JOHN COX;
: Okay. And what other, what other
10
last name?
11
RACHEL :
Well I have several.
12
JOHN COX;
; Well, don't be bashful.
13
RACHEL :
Oh I'm not bashful.
14
JOHN COX;
Shoot, I'll tell you my
name.
15
RACHEL :
I used to be when I was five.
16
JOHN COX:
You were bashful when you were
17
five? You outgrew
it when you were five?
18
RACHEL ;
Yeah, my, my picture, I have a
19
picture
of myself when I was in kindergarten
and my
20
chin was
down to my, what do you call that?
(Laughs )
21
Near my
-
22
JOHN COX:
Your neck .
23
RACHEL :
My neck.
24
JOHN COX:
How's that?
25
RACHEL :
Yeah. Literally.
JOHN COX:
That being polite?
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RACHEL: The picture — I still remember the
very day I took that.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
RACHEL: Everybody's laughing around me. I
still remember —
JOHN COX: That's all right, they probably
have some pictures too, don't they?
RACHEL: I still remember the very day when I
was in kindergarten and they took that picture, I was
so bashful my chin was down to my neck and my face was
probably red and that's how the picture turned out.
JOHN COX: (Laughs) Hey — they never said
it'd be easy did they?
RACHEL : No .
JOHN COX: What's your, what's your other
last name?
RACHEL: Well —
JOHN COX: And, and let me tell you why I'm
asking.
RACHEL: I think well, I can give you a guess
— I want you to guess. I mean, seeing how you
probably know, know a lot about most of us here.
JOHN COX: No, I really don't. All I —
RACHEL: Well you should —
JOHN COX: A lot of the —
RACHEL: I mean, all you got to do is look in
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the computer.
JOHN COX: A lot of the reasons that I have
names is because people have called in here —
RACHEL: Well tell me who called, I would
like to know if anyone's called about me because I
don ' t think anyone has .
JOHN COX: I don't have your name on the
list. Now I just talked to, to Jeff Little, and his
dad, Lonnie Little, had called in, and I talked to some
other folks, Margarita Vega, her daughter, Ursula
Gehrman, called in, and that's the way I have names,
believe me, I, I don't have any Ouija board here or
anything else to try and, try and figure things out.
So I'm not asking it to be nosy or anything else, you
know.
RACHEL: Oh, I know. It's really no secret,
it's just —
JOHN COX: Well what is it?
RACHEL: I enjoy playing the —
JOHN COX: The game with me?
RACHEL: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Well, that's okay.
RACHEL: Just with you, it’s just, just
between me an you, I think it's kind of fun.
JOHN COX: You going to tell me or am I, am I
going to have to figure it out?
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RACHEL : Well I ' 11 talk , I'll talk to you
after okay, because Thibodeau's here.
JOHN COX: He is? Well, okay.
RACHEL: Cause he just stepped up and said —
JOHN COX: When we're done with Thibodeau
you, you come on back on the phone.
RACHEL: Okay I will.
JOHN COX: All right.
RACHEL: All right, here he is.
DAVID THIB : Hello .
JOHN COX: David.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah, how you doing?
JOHN COX: John Cox is my name.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Hello John.
JOHN COX: And, you sound like you're from
Louisiana.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Huh — no I'm actually from
New England.
JOHN COX: Well you're a Thibodeau that
doesn't put an X on the end, huh?
DAVID THIBODEAU: That'S right.
JOHN COX: Hey — because I'm from Louisiana.
DAVID THIBODEAU: There'S Louisiana
Thibodeaus .
JOHN COX: And there are a lot of Thibodeaus
down where I'm from.
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DAVID THIBODEAU: Oh there sure are.
JOHN COX: It's, it's a very common name.
DAVID THIBODEAU: During the Spanish war two
groups — one group went down to Louisiana and the
other group migrated down in the New England area.
JOHN COX: What part of New England?
DAVID THIBODEAU : Maine .
JOHN COX: Oh, up in the, in the north
country, huh?
DAVID THIBODEAU : Yeah .
JOHN COX: Real New England.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Real cold.
JOHN COX: Cause I've got relatives in New
England and they put a U on the end and no UX.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah, no UX.
JOHN COX: But we've got a lot of Thibodeaus
in Lafayette, Louisiana, believe me.
DAVID THIBODEAU: All my life I wanted to
take the time to go to Louisiana and meet a few of
them, too — I always thought that would —
JOHN COX: Believe me, it's the best food —
DAVID THIBODEAU: Meet my Cajun brothers,
yeah.
world .
JOHN COX: — and the best people in the
DAVID THIBODEAU: I'll bet. I'll bet.
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JOHN COX: Friendly folks. The reason I
wanted to talk to you David —
DAVID THIBODEAU ; Um-hum .
JOHN COX: — and see, in, in Lafayette we
don't pronounce it David, we pronounce it Daveed.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: Belinda Ganem — G-A-N-E-M —
DAVID THIBODEAU: Oh yeah.
JOHN COX: — called, and wanted to know if
you were all right. So what they have done is they put
a list together of people who have called and people
who are supposed to be in there and all I'm doing —
and trying to — I talked to Steve and I talked to
David and I said look, I'd like to talk to these people
and at least I can have somebody make a call and say
hey, we did talk to them, they are all right, and, and
they're doing fine, so — is she a, a close relative of
yours?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Oh, that's my mom.
JOHN COX: Your mom. Okay, well I have no
idea .
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah, I, I understand that.
JOHN COX: All I have is a name —
DAVID THIBODEAU: I, I hear she's been giving
you guys quite the hard time. (Laughs)
JOHN COX: That I don't know, I haven't
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talked to her.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Well, I heard she wanted to
come in and, and negotiate and all that.
JOHN COX: Well, I'll be happy to talk to
her, believe me.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Well, when you give her a
message —
JOHN COX: She's from Bangor, Maine, huh?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Bangor, yeah.
JOHN COX: Okay. Let me ask you something.
I got the area code of 207 —
DAVID THIBODEAU TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON:
Please, watch the phone cord, hey?
DAVID THIBODEAU TO JOHN COX: Okay, pardon?
JOHN COX; I got, I got the — 207-942 — you
tell me what the last four are.
DAVID THIBODEAU: 4404.
JOHN COX: We're in business, pal.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Is she here?
JOHN COX: Do you have a —
DAVID THIBODEAU: I heard she was here.
JOHN COX: Well, if she is I'm unaware of it
but I'm sure somebody's going to be calling that number
and tell them that we talked to you and that you ' re
fine and do you have a message — I'll be happy to give
it to them.
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DAVID THIBODEAU: Well yeah, I'd just like
her to know that I'm here of my own free will —
JOHN COX : Okay .
DAVID THIBODEAU: — there definitely are no
hostages, whatsoever.
JOHN COX: Oh, I don't think there are. I
don't think there are.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Well, you know I'm hearing
the reports left and right and you guys are making us
look pretty bad —
JOHN COX: What?
DAVID THIBODEAU: — gets, gets pretty
discouraging seeing as these were the nicest people
I've ever met in my life.
JOHN COX: I'm, I'm sure they are nice
people.
DAVID THIBODEAU: And I am ve — and another
thing, I'd just like to make a statement —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU; I'm, I'm very far from
religious, okay?
JOHN COX: You're what?
DAVID THIBODEAU; Very far from religious,
you know, I keep hearing this religious cult and all
that. I'm here for music reasons and political reasons
mostly, okay? There's, there's a lot of injustice
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going on and I ' ve learned more about it here than any
place in the world. And that's one thing that, you
know my mother's always raised me to do whatever I can,
you know —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: — to fight, in any, in any
way and I'm, you know, I'm, I'm just, I'm pretty much
disgusted with the whole situation. You know, I know
you're just here to talk us out and all that —
JOHN COX: No, I'm just here to communicate.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Well that's fine, but —
JOHN COX: And I, and I know when you're
ready to come out, you come out.
DAVID THIBODEAU: That'S great. I just think
the situation could have been handled — I know you
guys have heard this a million times, but it should
have been —
JOHN COX: It could have been handled
differently huh?
DAVID THIBODEAU: — a million other ways.
JOHN COX: Hey, I can't argue that with you.
It, it probably should have been handled some other way
but it wasn't, was it?
DAVID THIBODEAU: No, definitely —
JOHN COX: And it, and it, and it's something
that you got to live with, something I got to live
with.
21
2 DAVID THIBODEAU: Exactly.
3 JOHN COX: And it's a shame, but there's no
4 changing that.
5 DAVID THIBODEAU: Tell them all I love them
6 very much cause my whole family, they're all flipping
7 out — you know?
8 JOHN COX: Do you have other relatives up
9 there too?
10 DAVID THIBODEAU: Sure, I'm sure she'll get
11 in touch with all of them.
12 JOHN COX: Okay.
13 DAVID THIBODEAU: I do have other relatives
14 and other friends and such, but, it's probably all you
15 need for now.
16 JOHN COX: But, but that's your mom.
17 DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah.
18 JOHN COX: Okay. But — let me, let me pass
19 one other thing by you, okay?
20 DAVID THIBODEAU: Can I give you another
21 phone number you can make another call for me? I might
22 as well give you my dad, they're, they're separate —
23 they've been divorced for years, so.
24 JOHN COX: Hang on. I need to get a little
25 piece of paper here, okay? Your — what's your dad's
name?
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DAVID THIBODEAU: David Thibodeau, shouldn't
be too hard for you.
JOHN COX: Without an X, huh?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah.
JOHN COX: T-H-I-B-O-D-E-A-U, no X and what’s
his phone number?
DAVID THIBODEAU: It's 207 —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: 734 —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: 8149.
JOHN COX: 8149. And he lives where?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Ilesboro —
DAVID THIBODEAU TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Hey,
hey, hey, hey, hey — will you watch them?
DAVID THIBODEAU TO JOHN COX: Okay, you
there?
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Okay. The phone cord keeps
getting pulled.
JOHN COX: Those little rug rats running
around the phone line, huh?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah. (Laughs) Yeah, she's
sweet .
JOHN COX: Now where does, where does he
live?
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DAVID THIBODEAU: Ilesboro, it's a —
JOHN COX; I-L —
DAVID THIBODEAU: Hold on just a second.
DAVID THIBODEAU TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON:
What? (Indiscernible).
DAVID THIBODEAU TO JOHN COX: Okay, I'm
sorry.
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JOHN COX: Go ahead.
DAVID THIBODEAU; It's just Ilesboro, Maine.
JOHN COX: Ilesboro?
DAVID THIBODEAU : Yes .
JOHN COX: What, like I-L-E-S-B-O-R-0?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah, yeah, lies — that's
it.
JOHN COX: Okay, let me ask you something
before you get off the phone. You said you came down
there — how long you been down there?
DAVID THIBODEAU; Couple years.
JOHN COX: Couple years you came down.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Well I've been here off and
on for a couple years —
JOHN COX: For music reasons and political
reasons .
DAVID THIBODEAU: Well, it's just — the guys
shooting —
JOHN COX: How did you end up down there for
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music reasons or political reasons?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Well when I originally met
David of course, he's an incredible guitarist —
JOHN COX: That's what I understand —
DAVID THIBODEAU : Yes .
JOHN COX: — as a matter of fact I listened
to some of his music, not bad.
DAVID THIBODEAU: I'm a drummer, so, that's,
you know —
JOHN COX: Oh, well you met here, or your met
him out in the west coast?
DAVID THIBODEAU: I met him in Los Angeles.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: I went there, because you
know, I wanted to make something of my life of course
and it was always through music. I went to music
school .
JOHN COX: Out in California?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah.
JOHN COX : Hey .
DAVID THIBODEAU: And I ended, I ended up
meeting David —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: — and you know, we
practiced and all but there always was something about
the guy — he always wanted to, you know, get into that
25
• •
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book and I was really never interested --
JOHN COX: He's got a lot of charisma.
DAVID THIBODEAU: NO, that's not it —
JOHN COX : No?
DAVID THIBODEAU: That'S not it, because —
JOHN COX: Well he does.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah, well he does, he's
got a way with words, definitely, but the thing is, see
I was always wary of him, for about six months in the
medium and everybody I met, I always am, being cautious
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: — you know, living in Los
Angeles, especially.
JOHN COX: (Laughs) It's got — it's a
different world, huh?
DAVID THIBODEAU: But I actually allowed the
guy to show me some things from the books, I, I was
never into it but there was an interest, I always
wanted to know a little bit about everything that I
could .
JOHN COX: Sure.
DAVID THIBODEAU: You know, I was never
against knowledge or wisdom —
JOHN COX: Hey, curiosity.
DAVID THIBODEAU: — and I started to see
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scriptures, not just verses, like you know, preachers
will take a verse and make a big old story out of it
and tell us some experience from their lives — it
wasn't like that. The guy showed chapters --
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: — and chapters and
chapters of different prophets and harmonized them and
showed a plan —
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID THIBODEAU: — and the plan, over the
last two years what I've seen has been so incredibly
complete and solid, you know, it's, it floored me.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID THIBODEAU: And it has, it has really
nothing to do with David's charisma or, or not —
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID THIBODEAU: — it's just opening the
book for myself, seeing what it says and saying, wow,
is this guy found in the book, you know and all the
Psalms, you, you really got to sit down and listen to
him talk, I mean with the book open, cause it doesn't
mean anything, we're just talking to you, okay?
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID THIBODEAU: We're just talking to you,
it doesn't mean anything without the book open.
JOHN COX: I bet.
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• •
DAVID THIBODEAU: You know, it's —
JOHN COX: Well it does mean something
because it was, you know, totally alien to me, I knew
nothing about it until I started talking to David and
talking to Steve, and, and it's enlightening. I, you
know, I've, I've talked to David, the, this is the
third night that I've talked to him and it, it's
unusual for me because it's, it's something that is
totally new to me.
DAVID THIBODEAU: And if you look the
scriptures up it's there. That's, that's the thing, I,
I --
JOHN COX: Well a lot of it's how you
interpret it, and how it's being interpreted for you,
right?
DAVID THIBODEAU: No. No, no —
JOHN COX: Why not?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Because it's word for word.
That's the incredible thing. Once you start to learn
JOHN COX: Well it's like, you know, the Lord
made the world in seven days, the question is, did he
make it in seven days, did he make it in seven hundred
days, who, who'll be able to answer that?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Well it said seven days.
JOHN COX: Well I know it did.
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DAVID THIBODEAU: It'S like, you know, that's
like —
JOHN COX: But there's a strict
interpretation of the Bible, there's a loose
interpretation, there's the Old Testament, the New
Testament —
DAVID THIBODEAU: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: — and like I told David and I
told Steve I said, hey, I believe everybody's got their
right to, to their own, their own religious beliefs and
I would sure not try to, to slant any of them, you
know?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Well that's one of the
beautiful things about what David shows you from the
book is the fact that it's not just the Old Testament
and it's not just the New Testament, but it's the
harmonization of both and the harmonization of all the
prophets. Just for example, you want me to speak real
quick —
JOHN COX: Go ahead — no, you don't have to
speak quick, take your time.
DAVID THIBODEAU: In Revelation 4 and 5 —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: The challenge is definitely
there.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
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DAVID THIBODEAU: It says very clearly that
God sits on the throne and he has a book and he gives
it to the only one that's worthy and that's the Lamb.
And the book is sealed with seven seals and no man can
even look thereon —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: No one. You can't even —
you can study that book all your life as rabbis have,
they study till they're 80, 90, up to the days of their
death and they think they have all this wisdom and
understanding but the book itself says they can never
know it.
JOHN COX: Why?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Because it's what the book
says. No man can look thereon. You can never know the
seven seals. You can never unlock the mysteries unless
God shows you.
JOHN COX: But David told me he can.
DAVID THIBODEAU: I beg your pardon?
JOHN COX: David told me he can.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yes.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: That's right. He can.
JOHN COX: And, and —
DAVID THIBODEAU: See, that's what has been
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JOHN COX: — and so there's a reason for
that, isn't there?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yes there is.
JOHN COX: And what ' s the reason?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Well you, you draw your own
conclusion, sir.
JOHN COX : Huh?
DAVID THIBODEAU: I like to let you draw your
own conclusion, I've, I've drawn mine.
JOHN COX: Well he — because he told me
something and, and I believe he believes that and
that's fine. That's fine, and, and I don't have any
animosity about that. Not at all. The curious thing
that I, that I asked him, and, and that I've asked
everybody, really is, and, and it's hard to get an
answer, or hard to get an explanation — you know and I
know that David said, Steven said, everybody said
you're free to leave if you want to leave right?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah, yeah.
JOHN COX: And, and that because you are in
there it's because it's your own free will —
DAVID THIBODEAU: That's true.
JOHN COX: — your own volition and nobody's
forcing you to stay in there, right?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: And, and we both know that, but as
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I talked to Steven and as I talked to David I said hey,
you know I can go to a Baptist church, and a Methodist
church and a Presbyterian church, an Episcopalian,
Catholic, on and on and on. I don't find Law rockets
and I don't find automatic weapons and I don't find 50
caliber rifles and I don't find all of these things in
these churches, how come they're there?
DAVID THIBODEAU : You don ' t know that we have
all of those things, John.
JOHN COX: Yeah I do, he admitted it. He
told me that you did. If he tells me I believe it,
huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Well okay, why don't do
this then John, why don't you ask him to show you from
the book where it states those things.
JOHN COX: States what? That you, you should
bear arms?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yes. It'S a constitutional
right to bear arms.
JOHN COX: I know there is but there's no
constitutional right to bear Law rockets and there's no
constitutional right to bear automatic weapons and
there are no constitutional rights to bear automatic 50
caliber rifles.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Let me hit you with this
one then —
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JOHN COX: And, and — let me ask you one
other thing.
DAVID THIBODEAU : Okay .
JOHN COX: You tell me the last Catholic
rectory you went into. Catholic church. Baptist —
DAVID THIBODEAU; I never went into —
JOHN COX: — priory, priory, or Baptist
church or any other church or rectory that you went
into that you had those type of weapons — can you tell
me one?
DAVID THIBODEAU: No because I never really
went to church.
JOHN COX: Well you said that you came down
here because of music reasons and because of political
reasons .
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah because well —
JOHN COX; And it had nothing to do with
religious reasons, right?
DAVID THIBODEAU: I've learned so much. Well
I can't —
JOHN COX; What political reason did —
DAVID THIBODEAU: — it had something to do
with religious reasons, obviously, because everything
was from the book —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: — but I'm not, you know —
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JOHN COX: You can't tell me why you've got
all those guns in there though, can you?
DAVID THIBODEAU: What I'm trying to tell you
is I never once in my life felt Jesus, I never felt his
spirit, his presence or anything like that —
everything that I've done and everything that I've
learned has been because of a knowledge and a wisdom —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: — and a book. And careful
thinking everything out —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: — you know, and just going
through what the Scripture says and going through the
relation of today, what the four beasts are that stand
on the sea —
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID THIBODEAU: How they harmonize with our
world's history —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: — you know, and it's all
right there.
JOHN COX: That's great.
DAVID THIBODEAU: It comes up to right now,
today.
JOHN COX: That's terrific, you know, it
really is. It really is. And I'm, I'm, I'm as sincere
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as I can be when I tell you that, that, you know I
applaud you for your, for your beliefs and having
strong religious beliefs and, and everybody should have
strong religious beliefs. But as I asked you, and you
couldn't answer me, why do people have that type of
weaponry in a religious community? And there is no
valid answer, is there?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Sure there is.
JOHN COX: What?
DAVID THIBODEAU: It goes back to the
constitution.
JOHN COX: Na na na, no — constitution says
DAVID THIBODEAU: No, listen —
JOHN COX: — we have a right to bear arms —
DAVID THIBODEAU:- And have a private militia.
And when the weapons of the government —
JOHN COX: And you know what it meant by the
private militia?
DAVID THIBODEAU: No wait —
JOHN COX: The militias of the states. That
was clearly defined by the courts.
DAVID THIBODEAU: When the weapon —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: — when the government
exceeds
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JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: — In weaponry what the
private militia — what the people have, that's when it
gets dangerous.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Every single society in the
past has learned from this mistake of giving their
weapons up. Actually we're actually somewhat the
first, of course the first modern country to give the
people those rights.
JOHN COX: You bet — and why? Because of
religious beliefs, huh?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Because of religious and
political beliefs.
JOHN COX: Yeah but, the country was formed
really, because of people coming to the United States
because of religious oppression in other countries,
huh?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Like I said, when Big
Brother starts pushing around the little guy, you know,
and they start taking your weapons away and there's —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: — not a way you can fight,
that's when tyranny arises again, as it has —
JOHN COX: Hey David, David —
DAVID THIBODEAU: — every single age.
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JOHN COX: Tell me, people need weapons in
church?
DAVID THIBODEAU: This is the life, though,
this isn't just the church.
JOHN COX: It's a religious sanctuary in
there, isn't it?
DAVID THIBODEAU: That's (laughs) — yeah.
You come here to learn about God.
JOHN COX: Well, well, you, you tell me that
you have the right to bear arms but I want you to show
me some place where you have a right to bear arms that
are illegal — against the law, and David spelled it
out to me and Steven spelled it out to me and so did
Wayne, that they do believe in the Constitution and the
laws of the United States and they do believe in
upholding the Constitution and the laws of the United
States. And the laws of the United States do not allow
people to have automatic weapons. Law rockets, 50
caliber weapons — it's against the law, it's as simple
as that. It's going to be kind of a hard, hard one to
refute, isn't it?
DAVID THIBODEAU: We'll see.
JOHN COX: Well, what political reasons bring
you down there?
DAVID THIBODEAU : Pardon?
JOHN COX: What political reasons bring you
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down there from Maine? Must have run you out of
California, that's what it was.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah, out of California,
basically.
JOHN COX: (Laughs)
DAVID THIBODEAU: It's just a —
JOHN COX: It had to be culture shock going
from Maine to California.
DAVID THIBODEAU: It was always my desire all
my life —
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID THIBODEAU: By the time I was quite
happy to get there and I thought —
JOHN COX: Too starchy up in Maine for me?
DAVID THIBODEAU; Pardon?
JOHN COX: A little too stiff up in Maine for
you?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Definitely. A little too
— I'm not into life in the slow lane.
JOHN COX: Yeah, yeah.
DAVID THIBODEAU : Of course I never expected
this, but nonetheless.
JOHN COX: No I'm sure you didn't, none of us
did, did we?
DAVID THIBODEAU : No .
JOHN COX: No. Well what got you — what
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political upheaval got you cooking there?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Well like I said, if you
start to learn about the beast of Revelation
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: — it —
JOHN COX: We're talking religion, not
politics now.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Now wait a second. The
book is a political book also —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: The four beasts talk about
the various different empires that have risen up and
fallen and why they have risen up and fallen —
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID THIBODEAU: — and what the, the last
political empire would be. The Lamb-like beast —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: — who by peace should
destroy many. Okay there's something to this peace,
what is a Lamb-like beast? How is it though peace he
destroys many? You know today you got people, all they
really want's their TV, you know, their refrigerator.
And you know, they're doing just fine.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID THIBODEAU: A lot of people aren't even
aware of the laws being passed daily. There's so many
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different laws, so many different, you know — first
it's subtle of course, subtle oppression is being
passed upon the people.
JOHN COX: What's it going to take to resolve
it though, huh?
DAVID THIBODEAU: And then it gets bigger.
It ' s going to take God to resolve it . And —
JOHN COX: Why do you say that?
DAVID THIBODEAU: — in answer to, in answer
to your original question —
JOHN COX: Yeah, go ahead.
DAVID THIBODEAU: — my only question —
JOHN COX: I didn't mean to interrupt you,
I'm sorry.
DAVID THIBODEAU: That's okay, it's okay
John, that's all right. The only thing I would say to
you is read Nahum. Read Nahum thoroughly if you want
to know why —
JOHN COX: Let me tell you. David and I have
read Nahum together.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Well that's, that's my
answer to you. Why a church would have weapons of any
kind, that's my answer,
JOHN COX: Well that's kind of bizarre.
DAVID THIBODEAU: We’re a political church.
It may be bizarre to you.
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JOHN COX: It is.
DAVID THIBODEAU: I don't expect you to know
— if I were in your shoes it would be very bizarre to
me also, but I'm seeing it all from a different angle.
The papacy has tons of weapons.
JOHN COX: It does?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Well let me know the —
DAVID THIBODEAU: (Indiscernible)
JOHN COX: — next time, let me know the next
time you go in a Catholic church and you see the
weapons that you have in there.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Well I didn't mention
Catholic church. I meant the —
JOHN COX: Isn't that part of the papacy?
DAVID THIBODEAU: It is the Catholic church.
JOHN COX: Huh? What kind of weapons do they
have?
DAVID THIBODEAU: They get everything.
JOHN COX: What?
DAVID THIBODEAU: 50 cal, full auto —
JOHN COX: You're having a pipe dream.
DAVID THIBODEAU TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON:
( Indiscernible)
JOHN COX: You want to go over and see, you
want to go over and see the Swiss guard at Rome, at, at
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the, at Saint Peter's and you see the 50 calibers that
they're armed with, they're known as pikes.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Uh-huh.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Okay, well that's, you
know, that's fine, you've had your experience and
you've learned your thing —
JOHN COX: I'm not sitting here —
DAVID THIBODEAU; -- maybe no —
JOHN COX: — I'm not sitting here to lie to
you.
DAVID THIBODEAU: John maybe it's something I
should check out for myself. That's, that's what I'm
always up for but I don't see where we're going to have
the chance to check out any information like that.
JOHN COX : Why?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Why? Why do you think?
JOHN COX: Because —
DAVID THIBODEAU: I see why you guys are
feeding the media, man, we're, we're, toast. If God
isn't true —
JOHN COX: Hey if you dreamed that —
JOHN COX: — if you think that, you really
got some serious problems because I told David and I
told Steven and so has everybody else told them, that
anybody is free to leave there any time they want. You
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saw those youngsters leave there, all of them are being
cared for —
DAVID THIBODEAU: That'S true.
JOHN COX: — they're being well fed, we have
no animosity toward you or to any of those children in
there or those women or to David or to Steven.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: And if you're afraid to come out
into the real world, that's your prerogative —
DAVID THIBODEAU: I'm not afraid. I'm not
afraid of anything but God.
JOHN COX: Well, if you, if you — why you —
then don't say that we're feeding some false
information to the media. We basically told the media
the same thing that we told David and David has given
us an answer.
DAVID THIBODEAU: I saw the news report. I'm
hear first-hand. I know what you people have said to
the media.
JOHN COX: And what was said --
DAVID THIBODEAU: I, I know what you're
saying.
JOHN COX: And what was said that was
inaccurate?
DAVID THIBODEAU: It'S, it's, you know it the
— you guys are all versed in this , it's the way you
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cover little things up —
JOHN COX: I'm just asking you.
DAVID THIBODEAU: — all the (Indiscernible),
we get, we get four gallons of milk if we, you know,
reler — release people, what kind --
JOHN COX: That's right. What's wrong with
that?
DAVID THIBODEAU: — (Indiscernible) is that?
You know the kids, the kids, the guy's babies need food
here, you know, there's a humanitarian thing first and
I'm sure if the media knew about that they wouldn't be
too happy.
JOHN COX: They do know about it.
DAVID THIBODEAU: However you've done wonders
in cutting off our —
JOHN COX: What?
DAVID THIBODEAU: They totally turned it
around, made it sound like it was our fault, like it
was our problem and that's not true.
JOHN COX: It isn't?
DAVID THIBODEAU: No, it isn’t.
JOHN COX: Well, time will tell, won't it?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah.
JOHN COX: And all you got to do is come out
of there, you got the food, you got the milk. It's a
real simple procedure. And the media knows that David
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went against his word. The media understands that.
That he agreed to do something and he didn't do it.
The media understands that. And the media also
understands that when David is ready, everyone will
come out because David told me he's ready to come out
and that he will come out —
DAVID THIBODEAU: Well that's fine —
JOHN COX: — and I believe that he will come
out.
DAVID THIBODEAU: — then I may just meet you
face to face yet, John.
JOHN COX: I'm sorry, what?
DAVID THIBODEAU: I said I'd — then I may
just meet you face to face yet.
JOHN COX: Well we probably will.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Okay then.
JOHN COX: You know? And I hope so.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Okay, do me a favor — are
you going to get those messages to my family?
JOHN COX: You bet.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Okay, thank you very much.
JOHN COX: That's the, that's the main reason
I wanted to talk to you, pal.
DAVID THIBODEAU; Okay. Well I'm going to
give you over to David now.
JOHN COX: Hey, you take care of yourself.
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too .
DAVID THIBODEAU: Well thank you, you too.
JOHN COX : Okay .
DAVID THIBODEAU: Okay. Bye.
DAVID KORESH: Got any satisfaction on this
John?
JOHN COX: Hey, that's great. I really
enjoyed talking to him because now I can call his dad,
I can call, you know, other relatives and -- I had fun
talking to Rachel's children, too.
DAVID KORESH: Yeah, they're good little boys
and girls.
JOHN COX: Huh? Aren't they?
DAVID KORESH: They're very good.
JOHN COX: Super. And, and for some reason
thought I had talked — I had spoken to Rachel before
but apparently I hadn't and she seems like a super
person, nice personality.
DAVID KORESH: Well everyone here is.
JOHN COX; Huh?
DAVID KORESH: They'd do anything for you.
JOHN COX: They would?
DAVID KORESH: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Almost.
DAVID KORESH: Oh well ' cept the bullshit.
JOHN COX: No, they'd do almost anything.
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DAVID KORESH: You know, let me tell you
something about my dad — my stepfather.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID KORESH: One reason that me and my
stepdad always had a difficulty together was that a —
you all may know him if you check the FBI files —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID KORESH: RoyHalderman (Phonetic).
JOHN COX: Roy?
DAVID KORESH: Roy Halderman.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh. Go ahead.
DAVID KORESH: He never, he never ever talked
to us kids, you know, me and my brother, stepbrother —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID KORESH: But every once in a while when
he'd get drunk he'd, you know, loosen up a bit and
start talking —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID KORESH: He was a guy that talked just
like you guys. You know, it's from the same era, you
know, forties, fifties — tough guy stuff, you know,
political stuff —
JOHN COX: Now do I talk like a tough guy?
DAVID KORESH: Oh yeah.
JOHN COX : No .
DAVID KORESH: Oh yeah.
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JOHN COX: Give me a break.
DAVID KORESH: Yeah, you do, yeah, yeah.
JOHN COX: Not really.
DAVID KORESH: Yeah, really.
JOHN COX: Go ahead.
DAVID KORESH: And a, anyway, he used to talk
about in those days, you know back, used to, they used
to gamble. And he used, used to have some lounges down
in Houston, course they used to do some stuff, you
know, before they took slot machines out and all that
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID KORESH: — they used to do some
questionable things, you know, this is his stories, you
know, that I heard —
JOHN COX: Probably a step beyond gambling,
huh?
DAVID KORESH: Oh yeah.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: You know, that's back when
Fats, excuse me, I forgot all the names now but it was
— a lot of pool sharks used to —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID KORESH: — used to run down through
there. A lot of the guys are now are known for
(Indiscernible), you know, they're in their 50s and 60s
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JOHN COX: Sure.
DAVID KORESH: But he, he used to talk about,
you know, the FBI and stuff and how you all sacked him
and everything.
JOHN COX: We sacked him?
DAVID KORESH: Oh yeah.
JOHN COX: Because of gambling or something?
DAVID KORESH: Well, no, it's something worse
than that.
JOHN COX: Oh.
DAVID KORESH: Back in those days, for a
while, like cocaine and stuff like that was
prescription.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID KORESH TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Take
the baby away.
DAVID KORESH TO JOHN COX: And, you know,
methamphetamine was prescriptions stuff.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID KORESH: They called it what a —
Bennies or Yellow Jackets or something like that —
JOHN COX: I don't know.
DAVID KORESH: I'm not really sure myself.
Anyway, so they used to get and they used to do all
this stuff. Anything back then was popping a pill —
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that was all weight control med — prescription weight
control. So they got, anyway, this guy used to come
into the club every day, every day after work —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID KORESH: — probably — anyway
something like seven or eight months, every day. And
Roy talked about how he used to see him in there all
the time. The guy never talked to anybody. Used to
sit, drink a few shots, you know
JOHN COX: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: — you know, watch the girls,
listen to music, you know, sit and drink, drink, smoke,
sit, drink and smoke. So, the guy was just patronizing
the place a long time so Roy went over to talk to him
one time and a, sit down, you know, so you don't notice
— my dad ' s a real cool talker — my stepdad that is .
Check that name out, Roy Halderman.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID KORESH: And a --
JOHN COX: He still lives in the — in the
Houston area?
DAVID KORESH; He lives in Chandler.
JOHN COX: In Chandler. What's that a suburb
of Houston?
DAVID KORESH; Of Tyler.
JOHN COX: Oh up north Texas, huh?
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DAVID KORESH: East Texas, yeah.
JOHN COX : Yeah .
DAVID KORESH: Anyway —
JOHN COX: IS he retired now?
DAVID KORESH: Oh yeah. And a, he, he, you
know, like I said, he'd only tell these stories when he
was, when he was loose a bit.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: But he said, you know —
JOHN COX: You think he had some real run-ins
with us or something?
DAVID KORESH: Oh yeah, well I'm just fixing
to tell you this story —
JOHN COX: Yeah, go ahead.
DAVID KORESH: About, about what happened.
So, you know, he, he talked to this guy and you know,
come and talk to him and all, cause my dad wasn't much
of a talker either, he was very, you know —
JOHN COX: Kept to himself.
DAVID KORESH: — they used to call him the
Mayor of Canalic (Phonetic) Street. And a, cause he
was, he was a big high- roller, you know?
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID KORESH: Wore big suits, back in those
days, new Cadillacs all the time, you know, high-
roller. And he kind of made friends with this guy.
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Anyway, they kept this friendship on for about a year.
Cause they, you know, this guy, Ed and Roy both were
guys that didn't talk much. And they kind of liked
each other.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID KORESH: You know, Roy used to always
say the guys talk too much — watermelon talk. You
know?
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: And, so anyway, months and
months pass and finally, you know, Roy asked him one
day if he, if he like, if he liked to have fun, you
know? And the guy says, well, you know, sonny, what do
you mean? He says, you know, you like to have fun?
Why don't you stay in after hours. So anyway, after
hours they used to, they used to close the club down,
lock the doors and all that, and they had another place
in the club where they used to all go and play this
$500 round pool to pool, pool shooting.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID KORESH: Plus there was strip girls,
prostitution, stuff like that. And a, you know,
clientele-type stuff. And so they used to do that kind
of stuff, and anyway, time went on, time went on, this
guy got all involved, you know, did this stuff, you
know, had a good time, you know, time went on, time
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went on. Anyway, one day this guy came to the house,
right? And Roy looked out, out the door, there he was,
opened the door — hey! you know, come one in — the
guy came in and shoved a badge in his face.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: You know, FBI.
JOHN COX: You're sure it was FBI?
DAVID KORESH: Oh yeah, FBI, FBI --
JOHN COX: There are a lot of other federal
badges out there.
DAVID KORESH: Well anyway listen, if I
remember the story correctly —
JOHN COX: Go ahead, I'm sorry.
DAVID KORESH: FBI—
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID KORESH: — SO anyway, so they
handcuffed him — but it — you know what happened was?
JOHN COX: What were they charging him with?
DAVID KORESH: Well he was illegal
prostitution, illegal gambling —
JOHN COX: Well —
DAVID KORESH: — you know, stuff like that,
after hours —
JOHN COX: Yeah, yeah,
DAVID KORESH: — money embezzlement, drugs
JOHN COX: Just started stacking 'em, huh?
DAVID KORESH: Yeah.
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3 JOHN COX: Yeah.
4 DAVID KORESH: You know I mean they were,
5 they were, they were selling these prescription — they
6 had a deal going they were selling these prescription
7 Yellow Jackets or something — back in those days it
8 was pre — you know, you could go buy this stuff, it
9 was weight medicine but it was prescription.
10 JOHN COX: Yeah.
11 DAVID KORESH: Today I — what they call the
12 stuff is like meth, you know, methamphetamine. You
13 know, they used to get wired out on that stuff.
14 Anyway, the, the deal of it was, was that the agent
15 liked him so much that they, they plea bargained. And
16 they told him if he'd get out of town and all that, you
17 know, drop everything —
18 JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
19 DAVID KORESH: — he had, he had to dump a
20 bunch of money and stuff, you know, a lot of money,
21 everything basically, right? All became federal,
22 became, given over to the government, right?
23 JOHN COX: He forfeited?
24 DAVID KORESH: Yeah, you know? And they
25 just, they, they let him run.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
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DAVID KORESH: You know? So he got (laughs)
— all because the agent liked him, you know?
JOHN COX: Hey, it works sometimes.
DAVID KORESH: Yeah well you know it, it's
kind of —
JOHN COX: Partic — particularly if he
probably cooperated on some other matters I'm sure.
DAVID KORESH: Oh well, yeah, he did, like
say he —
JOHN COX: And he might have been a small
fish.
DAVID KORESH: Well, no, he wasn't small but
back in those days, you know, things weren't quite as
well regulated. Lot of paperwork in those days, you
know what I mean?
JOHN COX: Yeah, yeah.
DAVID KORESH: Lot of paperwork has, you
know, easy access to erasers and —
JOHN COX: The, the best job in the world
could be a paper salesman to the government.
DAVID KORESH: Yeah, yeah.
JOHN COX: You know that.
DAVID KORESH: Well I'm sure it's more
(Indiscernible) today with the computers and all that.
But anyway, the, the thing he used — you know, that's
one of the stories he was telling me —
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JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH; — but, the guy was just such
a, you know, cold guy, you know, so they — he moved
JOHN COX: Hard to communicate with, huh?
DAVID KORESH: Oh yeah, you know, moved —
when he said something it would mean something, but you
know he, he finally went, he started working with his
hands, and —
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: — you know, unfortunate to
get out of the situation, and —
JOHN COX: It's amazing, for a number of
years I dealt with gambling cases and things like that
and usually once a gambler, always a gambler, it's hard
to get it out of the blood.
DAVID KORESH: Well he stopped.
JOHN COX: Did he really?
DAVID KORESH: He actually stopped
everything.
JOHN COX: That's remarkable because you know
like bookmakers and people like that normally they get
it in their system, they just can't get it out.
DAVID KORESH: It gets habitual, yeah.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: No, he stopped. He went and
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he came to my mother's dad, who was a home builder
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID KORESH: — and took up the trade of
carpentry and, and, see before that he was a merchant
marine.
JOHN COX: So he was gone a lot, huh?
DAVID KORESH: No, what, what I'm saying is,
is he started very young in the merchant marine — well
he went to Korea —
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: — and then after Korea he, he
was in the merchant marines.
JOHN COX: It's a hard life, I guess.
DAVID KORESH: He made a lot of money in the
merchant marines. And then he went into, into, into
the girls and the casinos and all that —
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: — kind of stuff down in
Houston. But, but the reason why he said that he, you
know, that he got out of that and dropped it all at
once is because he saw a door and he went through it
and he lived his life, done what he wanted to do, you
know, he'd seen everything, he had everything he ever
wanted —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID KORESH: — and, you know, the wind-
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down came and he took it. So he picked up a hammer,
you know, started learning carpentry, went into the
union, became a union journeyman after a few years, got
into good money, you know, and just went ahead —
JOHN COX: He really turned his life around.
DAVID KORESH: — raised us — yeah, raised a
family.
JOHN COX : Great .
DAVID KORESH: And you know, did nothing.
And then of course all my life I heard I heard mama
griping cause he never wanted to do anything.
JOHN COX: But you said he really did, huh?
DAVID KORESH: Yeah, well he did. But when
it came to family he didn't want to nothing but watch
the Dallas Cowboys, you know —
JOHN COX : Right .
DAVID KORESH: — Superbowl and all that
stuff.
JOHN COX: Just sit around, huh?
DAVID KORESH: Yeah and he used to say, he
used to say — hey, I been around the world 27 times.
JOHN COX: How old a fella is he now?
DAVID KORESH: Oh he's in his 60s now.
JOHN COX: Is he?
DAVID KORESH: He'S in his mid-60s.
JOHN COX: Well that's not too old.
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DAVID KORESH: 66, or 67, I'm not sure.
JOHN COX: But he's basically retired, huh?
DAVID KORESH: Oh yeah.
JOHN COX: And he and your mom aren't
together anymore?
DAVID KORESH: Oh yeah, they're together.
JOHN COX: Oh they are?
DAVID KORESH: Yeah she called up the other
day. She's a boo-hooer.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: But anyway —
JOHN COX: Well, she's probably concerned,
you know. Any mother would be.
DAVID KORESH: Yeah, you know. But one of
the things he gave us is (Indiscernible) because I
never was anything like him and —
JOHN COX: Well other than the carpentry bit,
huh?
DAVID KORESH: Yeah well of course I was, I
was already doing that anyway.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: You know I was raised by my
grandparents first anyway.
JOHN COX: Yeah, yeah.
DAVID KORESH: Before I ever met him. And
you know, hammering nails into my hands all my life.
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JOHN COX: Well, you may have taught him
something too, huh?
DAVID KORESH; Well, like I say, you know, he
— when I did get jobs with him where he used to do the
same kind of jobs when I went into commercial —
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID KORESH: — see Texas is open state
when it comes to —
JOHN COX: Construction?
DAVID KORESH: Yeah. In other words, we're,
we're not tied down to just union. We can also use,
you know, freelance contractors and stuff —
JOHN COX: Sure.
DAVID KORESH: — if we have any union
projects .
JOHN COX: Yeah I know, like Louisiana is
mostly non-union.
DAVID KORESH: Right. But like I say —
JOHN COX: He was union, though?
DAVID KORESH: Yeah, he was union.
JOHN COX: So you had both on the job
sometimes, huh?
DAVID KORESH: Exactly.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: So anyway, you know, it's just
like, you know, the law, the sys — you know that's not
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law. You know, he did wrong, you know?
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: And, and —
JOHN COX: Well there's wrong and there's
wrong, too though, isn't there? And, and there —
DAVID KORESH: Explain that to me.
JOHN COX: There's, well there's leniency
within the law.
DAVID KORESH TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Can you
give me another ginseng, please?
DAVID KORESH TO JOHN COX: Okay let me —
JOHN COX: Hello?
DAVID KORESH: — hear about it.
JOHN COX: I'm sorry. You back?
DAVID KORESH: Yeah I’m here.
JOHN COX: Well there are parameters within
the law and, and it allows a court to assess —
DAVID KORESH: Listen, this didn't get to no
court .
JOHN COX: Well it got to a U.S. Attorney's
office, probably.
DAVID KORESH: Yeah, I guess so.
JOHN COX: Before it got to a court in the
U.S.—
DAVID KORESH: Some, some big shot there —
JOHN COX: Sure. I mean, before, before we
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can ever prosecute a case we have to go to the United
States Attorney and present the case to him and then he
goes to the Grand Jury, et cetera, you know, through
the judicial —
DAVID KORESH: Yeah well this, this agent,
this agent did the same stuff with Roy.
JOHN COX; Oh really?
DAVID KORESH: Oh yeah. (Laughs)
JOHN COX: That's hard to believe.
DAVID KORESH: It is. But no, I mean they do
that today.
JOHN COX: It’s hard to believe.
DAVID KORESH: Even ATP agents or DEA agents.
You know, I mean if you're, if you're an undercover and
someone, someone's you know —
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: — wants you to try out some
pot, you know, you're going to smoke one, aren't you?
JOHN COX: Am I?
DAVID KORESH: Well I'm saying if you was an
agent, undercover agent.
JOHN COX: I couldn't tell you because I've
never been put in that situation.
DAVID KORESH: Right. But you know they do
it .
JOHN COX: But I don't want to be put in that
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Situation, you know?
DAVID KORESH: Yeah, you know they do.
JOHN COX: I'd, I'd be very uncomfortable. I
— and I've worked undercover before, so -- sometimes
you draw a fine line and sometimes you have to do some
things that you're uncomfortable about. But no, I was
just going to tell you the parameters, the laws if, and
I, and I've seen it happen many times when you sit down
with the United States Attorney's office and you say
hey, you know, this person, yeah sure, they're
violating the law, they've done this — however, they
could be so much value to us assisting some other
matter and that's probably what happened there. He cut
a deal and he plea bargained and, and it was resolved.
You know? Hey I enjoyed, I enjoyed talking to Rachel
too. She seems like a sweet person.
DAVID KORESH: Oh yeah, she's my baby.
JOHN COX: No, the baby's obviously Star
there, huh?
DAVID KORESH: Well Star's the middle. Star's
the middle-aged one.
JOHN COX: She was talkative.
DAVID KORESH; Yeah then Bobby's her little
sister. Cyrus is her older brother.
JOHN COX: And, and Cyrus, Cyrus said he
wanted to leave.
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DAVID KORESH: He did?
JOHN COX: I can't — I find that hard to
believe, huh?
DAVID KORESH: Well I told him that, you
know, once we got things worked out that there 'd be
good things out there.
JOHN COX: Hey, I told him that you'd all be
leaving, so, you know, the time will come.
DAVID KORESH: Right.
JOHN COX: And it'll all work out.
DAVID KORESH: I have not prejudiced these
children against you.
JOHN COX: I'm sure you haven't.
DAVID KORESH: But I, I was raised through
your system, remember that —
JOHN COX: I know.
DAVID KORESH: I have no gripes about it.
JOHN COX: I know. And, and I'm sure you
haven't. I really am. I just enjoyed talking to them
and hopefully I can talk to more, you know, and, and
some of the other people that were on the list that I,
I mentioned.
DAVID KORESH: Who else is on the list?
DAVID KORESH TO STAR: That'S John, that's
John right back on the far right there. Star —
JOHN COX: Hey —
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DAVID KORESH: — that’s John (Laughs)
JOHN COX: (Laughs) You let, you let her
draw that picture, didn't you?
DAVID KORESH: No, no. Listen, we have a —
JOHN COX: Tell the truth now.
DAVID KORESH: — we have one of the most, we
have one of the greatest artists in the world here.
JOHN COX: Do you really?
DAVID KORESH: Yeah we do.
JOHN COX: You going to save it for me?
DAVID KORESH: Yeah, we’re — it'll be here.
JOHN COX: It'S going to be a hell of a shock
when you see the real thing.
DAVID KORESH: Okay.
DAVID KORESH TO RACHEL: Rachel, you want to
talk to him, Rach?
JOHN COX: I don't know, I don't know if I
should make you laugh. Your system won't be able to
handle it.
DAVID KORESH: It'S, I think it's going to be
some, oh, why —
JOHN COX: Hey, I've had several people —
DAVID KORESH: That blew me away when Steve
says (Laughs) he says we got, we got, we got five kids,
right? He says Jim —
JOHN COX: You guys are cruel.
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DAVID KORESH: — and Gary — I think he
thought about the third one.
JOHN COX : ( Laughs )
DAVID KORESH: No, that caught me, boy blew
me.
JOHN COX: You guys are cruel.
DAVID KORESH: Well we got you all lined up
here, you all got your arms on each other's back and
you're all there smiling and one guy's saying you're
the best and other guy says —
(End Tape 87)
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
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TAPE #88
March 7, 1993
9:35 P.M. - 11:00 P.M.
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MR. KORESH: Sure, whoever, whoever you got
on the list there you can talk to.
AGENT: Okay, because I don't want to talk to
them late and I appreciate that, okay?
MR. KORESH: You have that freedom with me.
I will never stand in the position or in the way of
anybody communicating —
AGENT: Okay.
MR. KORESH: — with anybody out there.
AGENT: Well, let me call you back in a few
minutes , huh?
MR. KORESH: Okay, someone wanted to say
something to you before, before I let you go.
AGENT: Go right ahead, go right ahead.
RACHEL: I was just looking at this picture
up here on the —
AGENT: Who is this, Rachel?
RACHEL : Yes .
AGENT: I told him your child probably drew
that picture.
RACHEL: Oh, no, this is professional
(laughter) .
AGENT: (Laughter) He said you've got a real
good artist in there.
RACHEL: Yes, excellent.
AGENT: And I said wait until he comes out
3
and sees the real McCoy, he's probably going to get
choked up.
RACHEL: What does that mean, McCoy?
AGENT : Huh?
RACHEL: What does that mean, McCoy?
AGENT: The, the real, the real thing —
RACHEL: The real, the real —
AGENT: — the real me.
RACHEL: Do you have a long nose?
AGENT: No.
RACHEL: Okay. That's wrong then.
AGENT: That's really nasty.
RACHEL: No, it's not bad or anything. One
of them has a small nose. Let me see who's got a —
AGENT: A small nose?
RACHEL: Most of them do except —
AGENT : Except me . That ' s cute .
RACHEL: See, Dick has a real small nose.
MR. KORESH: (In background) It's just the
way the artist perceived his personality.
RACHEL: It'S not animated or anything.
It's, it's real.
AGENT: (Laughter) It's real?
MR. KORESH: (In background indiscernible)
RACHEL: Animated?
AGENT: It doesn't walk and talk I hope.
RACHEL: Oh, David said it's animated. Well,
2 it looks real to me.
3 AGENT: Yeah, yeah.
4 RACHEL: I mean, it's, it's very realistic.
5 AGENT: Well, let me ask you —
6 RACHEL: What?
7 AGENT: — what are the ages on those five
8 looking at them?
9 RACHEL: Oh dear, are you — don't take this
10 personally, are you young or old or —
11 AGENT: What do you think? How old do you
12 think I am?
13 RACHEL: You don't sound old.
14 AGENT: God bless you, Rachel.
1 5 RACHEL : ( Laughter )
16 AGENT: You, you're a darling.
17 RACHEL: Oh-oh, that means I must be wrong.
18 AGENT: No. How old do you think I am?
19 RACHEL: Well, most —
20 AGENT: I'd, I'd say you're in what, your
21 mid-twenties or something like that?
22 RACHEL: Um-hum, right. Most people — let's
23 see, about five (indiscernible).
24 AGENT: If I told you I was 6' tall and
25 weighed 175 pounds would you believe that?
RACHEL: Yeah, if you said it.
AGENT : Good .
2 RACHEL: Is that true?
3 AGENT: No, but I just thought I'd ask
4 (laughter).
5 RACHEL: (Laughter) Well, the picture
6 here —
7 AGENT: Uh-huh?
8 RACHEL: — well, you don't sound old but
9 hey, you know, people can — voices are really
10 deceiving. You can have a young voice and be 60 or 70
11 years old.
12 AGENT: That won't get you a lot of votes but
13 that's, that's a good idea.
14 RACHEL: (Laughter)
15 AGENT: That's a good —
16 RACHEL: I mean I have met people like that.
17 AGENT: That's right.
18 RACHEL: I mean, you know, before I have seen
19 their face actually —
20 AGENT: Just have a young voice and be
21 mature
22 RACHEL: Yeah.
23 AGENT: — that’s the way to look at it, huh?
24 RACHEL: Well, most — I would say most
25 people in your line of work —
AGENT: Uh-huh.
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1 RACHEL: — are not young so I — you know,
2 I've got that block In front of my mind anyway, you
3 know, because you have to have —
4 AGENT: No, you got these old gray-haired
5 guys and —
6 RACHEL: — you have to have years of
7 experience so you're not younger than 40 I would — I
8 know that .
9 AGENT: That's a safe bet.
10 RACHEL: You know? So —
11 AGENT: Let me ask you something —
12 RACHEL: What?
13 AGENT: — that I don't I, I mentioned to you
14 before, that because the last time we talked was the
15 first time, but you said you'd get back with me.
16 RACHEL: Um-hum.
17 AGENT: That David has mentioned, he just
18 mentioned it again as a matter of fact, you know, and
19 that he has mentioned to me several times in the, in
20 the last several days as has Steve that everybody in
21 there is free to come and go as they please.
22 RACHEL: Um-hum.
23 AGENT: You know, and of course I understand
24 that the children are under the control of the parents
25 and, and I understand that, I appreciate that. But
that all the adults can use their own free will to come
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and go as they please and if they care to, to leave
they can leave.
RACHEL : Um-hum .
AGENT: Right? That's true?
RACHEL : That ' s true .
AGENT: Which tells me that you care to
remain in there, huh?
RACHEL: That's exactly right.
AGENT: And you don't care to leave?
RACHEL : No .
AGENT: Okay, but as long as you understand
that if you want to leave, you can leave and there's —
no one's going to hold any animosity towards you and if
you have — you or the youngsters have any physical
problems that need cared for they'll be taken care of
out here.
RACHEL: Um-hum.
AGENT: And I, and I just want to reassure
you that that will happen. And like David and I have
discussed, we both know that David is going to come out
of there and hopefully he'll, he’ll heal up real well
and, and be able to walk out of there and lead his
flock out of there. But we, we know that it's just a
matter of when that you come out of there, not --
RACHEL: Um-hum.
AGENT: — not if you're going to come out of
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there.
RACHEL: Right.
AGENT: What do you think is —
(Sounds of children in background.)
AGENT: — which one is that?
RACHEL: What? What, sorry, what do you
mean? what, what — which one is that?
AGENT: (Laughter) It, it — it sounds
younger than Star.
RACHEL: Oh, what are you talking about, the
child's voice you hear? I don't understand your
question.
AGENT : Anyhow —
RACHEL: What —
AGENT: — what do you think it's going to
take to inspire you all to come out of there? Huh?
RACHEL: Inspire? Well, you've heard the
story over and over and over that we were ready to come
out that day, I don't even remember what day it was
because the week (indiscernible).
AGENT: Yeah, it's been a while back hasn't
it?
RACHEL: I don't even know what day it was.
My days run together. Was it Monday, Tuesday?
AGENT: Yeah, well, basically David has said
that, you know, he got the word.
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RACHEL: That's right. That's just the way
that it goes.
AGENT: But, but —
RACHEL: Because we, we were ready, I mean
sincerely. The children —
AGENT: Were you all dressed and ready to
come out?
RACHEL: That's right. The children were all
together —
AGENT : Uh-huh .
RACHEL: — and everybody was saying good-
bye, you know, it was kind of an emotional time —
AGENT: Yeah.
RACHEL: — you know, because we realized we
would be separated later. And everyone —
AGENT: Yeah.
RACHEL: — was saying good-bye and there's a
lot of people here so it was taking a while.
AGENT: Uh-huh.
RACHEL: And — I was just looking over here
at my daughter trying to watch her here. And we were
ready and they were getting the stretcher all ready and
putting some blankets on there and he prayed to his God
before, you know, we were getting ready to come out.
And his God told him to wait.
AGENT: Uh-huh.
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RACHEL: So that's the story. But we
definitely were getting ready to come out. Everybody
was —
AGENT: Yeah.
RACHEL: — you know, all the children were
together, they said — everybody was saying good-bye
and so forth.
AGENT: Well, David last night and, and the
night before we got into some, some long religious
discussions and, you know, he basically said that he's
the Lamb, that he's Christ and that when God tells him
he's, he's going to be — he's going to come out.
RACHEL: Well —
AGENT: And I said, I believe that, you know,
and you believe it obviously, don't you?
RACHEL : Sure .
AGENT: Why does everybody believe that
they're going to be separated from their children when
they come out? That's not going to happen.
RACHEL; Oh, really?
AGENT: I don't think so.
RACHEL; Well, they're — well, first of all,
they're going to not consider it as self-defense and
they'll probably just put us right in jail.
AGENT; I don't think so.
RACHEL; Oh, really? What do you think?
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AGENT: I mean, I really don't. Unless
somebody has done something that they believe is, is
wrong — the, the way the system works is, of course,
anybody that has any medical problems they'll be
provided —
(Rachel to someone in background)
RACHEL: Get off the phone.
AGENT; — they’ll, they'll be provided with
some medical attention, and that includes David, that
includes everyone. And the, the next step is of course
what we call an initial appearance where people are
brought before a United States District Judge and
then —
RACHEL; Um-hum.
AGENT: — they're told this is what they're
being charged with, and everybody that's in there
certainly is not going to be charged with anything, and
their right to an attorney and their right to bond and
their, their right to their freedom by posting bond and
going out on the street, you know? You have the same
rights as anybody else. So the —
(Child's voice)
AGENT: Hello there.
RACHEL: I'm here.
AGENT: What'S that, the youngest one?
RACHEL: Yeah, that's my baby.
12
1 i
AGENT :
Bobbie?
2
RACHEL :
Yes .
3
AGENT:
Yeah.
4
RACHEL:
She was telling me she
wanted down
5
AGENT :
She wants down, huh?
6
RACHEL :
Yeah.
7
AGENT :
But , but —
8
RACHEL :
She's a sweetheart.
9
AGENT:
Oh, I bet she is. Well,
, the other
10
ones
sounded great, too —
11
RACHEL :
Urn- hum.
12
AGENT:
— and I, I told —
13
RACHEL :
No.
14
AGENT :
— I told David I guess
that Cyrus
15
said
that he wanted to leave but it ' s kind of hard to
16
say
that he's free to leave, huh?
17
RACHEL :
Well, he's got some mixed emotions
18
on it. You know.
he wants to be with his parents but
19
yet
at the same time he's afraid that you
guys are
20
going to shoot us
-
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AGENT :
Well, let me —
22
RACHEL :
— you know?
23
AGENT :
— let me —
24
RACHEL :
So, he —
25
AGENT :
— let me tell you and.
and as I've
told David and everyone else, the last thing in the
13
1 world that's going to happen is for the government to
2 take any type of offensive action here. It's just not
3 going to happen. You know, we don't hurt babies, you
4 know, we don't hurt women, we don't do those type of
5 things .
6 RACHEL: What —
7 AGENT: And I'll tell you we don't
8 intentionally do it, okay?
9 RACHEL: Well, what about the Weaver case
10
where —
11
AGENT:
I know —
12
RACHEL :
— shot that — I
don't
know how old
13
that boy
was but
they killed him —
14
AGENT:
Where?
15
RACHEL :
— and his wife.
16
AGENT:
Where?
17
RACHEL :
The Weaver case.
18
AGENT:
Out in what, Idaho,
, Utah
or something
19
like that?
20
RACHEL :
I don't know. I don't even — I
21
don ' t know —
22
AGENT:
Yeah.
23
RACHEL :
— that much about it.
24
AGENT:
I know what I read
in the
paper .
25
RACHEL:
But he got shot.
You know, they
killed him.
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AGENT: I know what I read in the paper and
that's about all I could tell you. But I'm telling you
we don't intentionally do things like this. And the
way this situation is right now is that you people are
in there and as long as you don't take any aggressive
actions in there you can rest assured that we're
certainly not going to do anything out here. We're,
we're out here to just ensure because of the weapons
that are in there that the media, the other people on
the outside don’t get harmed and that somebody doesn't
come running out of there with a weapon —
RACHEL: Um-hum.
AGENT: — you know? And we don't want it to
happen. We want reasoning to work, we want love to
work, we want caring to work and we want all of
these — all of you to come out of there healthy
together and we want to keep the families together that
we can keep together because that ' s the way it ought to
work isn't it?
RACHEL: Yeah, well —
AGENT: And I'm, and I'm truthful when I'm
telling you that. That's exactly what we want to do is
keep the families together if we can keep them
together. And, and it's like right now all of the
youngsters are being kept together.
RACHEL; But that's not what we thought was
going to happen. We thought they were going to go to
their nearest kin.
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AGENT: Some are, some are going to go to
their nearest kin, but what we've done is — and
it's —
RACHEL: Why not all of them now?
AGENT: — and it's — well, some of the
nearest kin are back inside there. But what's going to
happen is —
RACHEL: No, I'm talking about they were all
given —
AGENT: Most were given little name tags and,
and relatives to contact and —
RACHEL: Uh-huh.
AGENT: — and relatives that they wanted to
be with. And, and what we have done is the state has
its rules and regulations, all right?
RACHEL: Um-hum.
AGENT: And, and they’re good people with the
state, the, the, the child — the children and the
welfare group. I don't mean welfare, but I'm not
thinking of the correct name of the group right now.
Social Services. Anyhow, what they are trying to do is
to keep them together right now and to —
RACHEL: Uh-huh.
AGENT: — and to give them some medical
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treatment to make sure that doctors and nurses look at
them, make sure there are no problems because that's
the last thing we want, right, is some medical problems
RACHEL: Well they've done (indiscernible).
AGENT: — and to get them some clean clothes
and to get them some good food and to get them well
nourished and taken care of and —
RACHEL: Their family can't provide that?
Their family can't provide good food and good clothes?
AGENT: Hey, believe me, their mothers and
fathers could provide it if they wanted to come out of
there,
RACHEL: That's not my question. Can't their
relatives, their grandmothers or whoever?
AGENT: They will, they will once the system
works , you know?
RACHEL: What do you mean by once the system
works?
AGENT: After the state does whatever it has
to do they will then, I'm sure, release the youngsters
to the custody of brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles,
grandmother, grandfather, whatever the case may be.
But what we ' re hoping will happen —
RACHEL: Why did the state have to — why did
can't —
17
1 AGENT: Listen to me, listen to me, Rachel.
2 RACHEL: But I want to see —
3 AGENT : What we ' re hoping will happen —
4 RACHEL: — I just want to make sure that I
5 understand every step that you make because I know you
6 guys deal with psychology and all this and I want to
7 make sure I understand every word that you say.
8 AGENT: With psychology?
9 RACHEL: Yeah.
10 AGENT: What do you think, I'm dealing with
11 psychology talking to you?
12 RACHEL: Well, you know, I mean it is your
13 job and I, I —
14 AGENT: To do what?
15 RACHEL: You know, you're probably two and a
16 half times older than I am or however.
17 AGENT: Oh, that's cute now. You thought I
18 was young before didn't you?
19 (Electronic noises)
20 AGENT: What are you doing?
21 RACHEL: No, somebody touched the phone.
22 AGENT: Oh.
23 RACHEL: No, sorry, maybe two — two.
24 AGENT: Uh-huh, that's cute.
25 RACHEL: Well, I don't know, one and a half.
AGENT : That ' s better .
RACHEL: Okay. Tell me, you're 45?
AGENT: Well, that's good. That's close.
18
3 That's close enough.
4
RACHEL:
Forty-two.
5
AGENT :
You could add 10 years to that.
6
RACHEL :
Oh, you're 52?
7
AGENT :
Yeah. How's that?
8
RACHEL :
Okay. Well, that's good.
9
AGENT :
Okay.
10
RACHEL :
That's okay. You're not quite over
11 the hill
yet .
12
AGENT :
( Laughter )
13
RACHEL :
(Laughter) Hey, this is my motto -■
14
AGENT :
Thanks a lot.
15
RACHEL :
— as long as you act young you ' 11
16 never get
Old.
17
AGENT :
You're only as old as you feel.
18 right?
19
RACHEL :
So —
20
AGENT :
Now, you wanted to know the way the
21 system works.
22
RACHEL :
Right .
23 AGENT: I can't tell you all the ins and outs
24 of the system but I tell you, I will find out. But I
25 know that once the youngsters came out they were, they
were met by the state people. And I don't mean federal
law-enforcement people. They were escorted out by
federal law-enforcement people, but they —
19
3 RACHEL: Can you tell me the names of the
4 women that are taking care of them? Is Rita
5 (indiscernible) taking care of them or does she work at
6 the office, because she seemed like a real nice lady?
7 AGENT: She's a, she's a woman I saw on TV.
8 Did she give a press conference or something or — ? I
9 thought I —
10 RACHEL: I didn't see that one.
11 AGENT: I saw somebody on TV and I, I —
12 RACHEL: Was she the one with black —
13 AGENT: — couldn't tell you whether that was
14 the name or not. But I, I —
15 RACHEL: Was she the one with black hair?
16 AGENT: Well, let me tell you, I saw at least
17 10 different people around here from that agency and
18 what they would do is sit down with the youngsters,
19 talk to them. They got the information, you know, from
20 the notes that were either in their pockets —
21 RACHEL: Um-hum.
22 AGENT: — the notes that were, you know,
23 clipped to them or whatever and then they took them
24 over to their facility. And, obviously, the first
nights they came in they just wanted to make sure they
got a good night's sleep and that they were taken care
25
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of because it was a new environment for the youngsters
RACHEL : Um-hum .
AGENT: — you know, immediately. And then
they got them some, some medical attention, you know?
RACHEL: What, a pediatrician or something?
AGENT: I'm sure, I'm sure. I don't know
what procedures they go through but I would think
that's a pretty safe bet for all of them.
RACHEL: Um-hum.
AGENT: And, and I'm sure maybe Jeremy got a
little additional — Jamie.
RACHEL : Jamie?
AGENT : Jamie .
RACHEL: Jamie, yeah (indiscernible).
AGENT: Jamie, yeah, I saw him, I saw him
when he came out of here. He's the kind you really
want to love and squeeze, huh?
RACHEL: Yeah. How come he wasn't in the
pictures?
AGENT: I don't know. I don't know. I
didn't see any pictures.
RACHEL: Well, how long have you been around?
AGENT: I've been around a long time but I'm
normally around here between 5 o'clock in the evening
and 8 o'clock in the morning.
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RACHEL : Hmm .
AGENT: You think I'm going to sit here all
day and all night, huh?
RACHEL : I am . No , I , I ' m not —
AGENT : But you ' re doing that —
RACHEL: — I'm not implying anything.
AGENT: — you're doing that by choice.
RACHEL: That's just a, just a statement.
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(Laughter)
AGENT: You're doing it by choice, I'm not.
Huh? But anyhow, he was a cute little guy, isn't he?
You know, and, and you got to really give those
youngsters a lot of extra love —
RACHEL: Um-hum.
AGENT: — like him. But then after I'm sure
they get medical attention. They're trying to keep
them together until —
RACHEL: Well, at least I can say —
AGENT: — they make the —
RACHEL: — that much for them, they're doing
that.
AGENT: Well, I think that's the right thing,
don't you?
RACHEL: Yeah.
AGENT: Rather than having them go to all
different foster homes and things like that —
22
1 RACHEL: Um-hum.
2 AGENT: — and then have to separate them and
3 they've, they've known one another from being in there
4 so it's, it's a lot easier to keep them together that
5 way , huh?
6 RACHEL: Um-hum.
7 AGENT: You doing okay?
8 RACHEL: I’m fine.
9 AGENT: You sure?
10 RACHEL: As good as the circumstance can be,
11 you know?
12 AGENT: Okay. Hey, as long as you know it's
13 down at the end of the road if you want to come down
14 the road, huh?
15 RACHEL: Yeah.
16 AGENT: And it's your choice to make.
17 RACHEL: Hmm.
18 AGENT: And — but we’ll meet, we'll see, and
19 you'll see that that artist is a little off, I hope.
20 RACHEL: I mean, I wouldn't even be — well,
21 yeah, I think he'll be a lot off on you.
22 AGENT: You do?
2 3 RACHEL : Yeah .
24 AGENT: Lord. Don't destroy that thing.
25 What about, what about Henry?
RACHEL : He's the one — he's the only one
23
1 I wearing glasses. They look like reading glasses.
2
AGENT :
Uh-oh, you got him figured out. He
3
hides
those reading glasses.
4
RACHEL :
They're just reading glasses, that'!
5
all.
6
AGENT :
Huh? Little granny glasses?
7
RACHEL :
Yes, exactly, half-glasses, you
8
know.
the
little
half-glasses?
9
AGENT :
Kind of a studious looking guy?
10
RACHEL :
Yes. He looks very studious. We
11
got Henry
down pretty good. (Laughter)
12
AGENT :
(Laughter)
13
RACHEL :
Yeah, he looks — he's the shortest
14
one.
Well —
15
AGENT :
The shortest one?
16
RACHEL :
No, actually he's about with you I
17
guess
18
AGENT :
Yeah.
19
RACHEL :
Is that about right?
20
AGENT :
Yeah, he's, he's — we're, we're
21
about
the
same size.
22
RACHEL :
See, Gary is a little on the tall
23
side -
-
24
AGENT :
Uh-huh.
25
RACHEL :
— and Dick.
AGENT: And Dick?
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RACHEL: Gary and Dick.
AGENT: Yeah.
RACHEL: Jim is just slightly taller than
Henry and yourself.
AGENT: Well, that’s close, that's close.
RACHEL: (Laughter) I don't know where he
got these ideas though.
AGENT: I, I'd love to see those. I'd really
love to see them. Listen, I told David I'd call him
back in a little bit and, and if you can do me a favor
because I don't want it to get too late. There were a
couple other people that I wanted to talk to and he
said hey, by all means and we got on a tangent last
night and we talked 'til about 2:30 in the morning.
RACHEL: Did you learn anything?
AGENT: Yeah, I did, I did.
RACHEL: Can you tell me or did you —
AGENT: No, I, I can't tell you whether I
believe everything —
RACHEL : Yeah?
AGENT: — but it was kind of enlightening.
RACHEL: Um-hum.
AGENT: It was kind of enlightening. We
talked about white horses and riders and red horses and
riders and, and, and got into a lot of in-depth
discussions —
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RACHEL: Um-hum.
AGENT: — and, and got up through several of
the seals and it was interesting.
RACHEL: Um-hum.
AGENT: You know?
RACHEL: Um-hum.
AGENT: But we, we also talked in, in both
the last two days that there were some people that
called in and wanted to talk to their loved ones and —
or wanted us to talk to you all and make sure that
these people were, were okay and I — and, and it was
nice to talk to Margarita this evening and David
Thibodeau and Jeff Little and, and there were a couple
of more. And David said, you know, before you get off
the phone with Rachel just let him know that there are
a couple of others that I wanted to talk to —
RACHEL : Um-hum .
AGENT: — before it got late.
RACHEL : Um-hum .
AGENT: Can you remember a couple of names if
I throw them at you?
RACHEL: Yeah.
AGENT : Huh?
RACHEL: Urfi-hum.
AGENT: Okay. There were Sherrie Jewel —
RACHEL: Yes?
26
1 AGENT: — okay?
2 RACHEL: Was that her mother that called?
3 Probably.
4 AGENT: Yeah, I guess a Mrs. Mosher?
5 RACHEL : Um-hum .
6 AGENT: Something, something like Mrs.
7 Mosher.
8 RACHEL: Yeah.
9 AGENT: There was a Mary Jane Borst.
10 RACHEL: Um-hum.
11 AGENT: And there's, I guess, a Perry Jones
12 and there are several others. Douglas Wayne Martin,
13 Sheila Martin and, and I think Dick talked to the
14 Martins' this afternoon.
15 RACHEL: So, so who called about Perry Jones?
16 AGENT: I don't know, I don't know.
17 RACHEL: You don't know?
18 AGENT; But, but I'll find out, but I'll find
19 out. But that, that name's on, on the list that I have
20 here. And —
21 RACHEL; Well, I can speak in behalf of him
22 because I'm his daughter.
23 AGENT: Can you?
24 RACHEL: Yes.
AGENT: You're kidding me. Is that right?
RACHEL: That's right.
25
AGENT: And he's in there with you?
RACHEL : Um-hum .
27
3 AGENT: Well, I don't know who called.
4 RACHEL: I'd like to know. That's why I'm
5 saying I, I was curious to see if anyone had called.
6 AGENT: Well —
7 RACHEL: And I would like to know who did
8 because —
9 AGENT: They should be calling about you too,
1 0 huh?
11 RACHEL: Yeah, maybe, you know sometimes you
12 call for the father concerning all —
13 AGENT: I'm sorry, I couldn't —
14 RACHEL: You know, sometimes you can call for
15 the father concerning the whole — you know, the
16 children —
17
AGENT :
Yeah.
18
RACHEL :
— and everyone.
19
AGENT :
Well, I'll sure try
and
find out.
20
Where ,
where would
1 your relatives be?
In,
in Texas or
21 California?
22 RACHEL: Oh, I have a lot of brothers and
23 sisters.
24 AGENT: Do you really?
25 RACHEL: There's 11 of us.
AGENT: Oh.
28
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RACHEL: So it could be just about anywhere.
AGENT: Yeah.
RACHEL: So —
AGENT: But all over the country?
RACHEL : Um-hum .
AGENT: I'll try and track it down and,
and —
RACHEL: I would appreciate it.
AGENT: — find out who. But there was
Sherrie Jewel and Mary Jane Borst and Graham Leonard
Craddock and the Martins and Paul Fatta and Colani
Fatta .
RACHEL: Um-hum.
AGENT: And any of them, you know, if you
can, if you can make any of them avail — hey, I'd love
to talk to your dad too, okay?
RACHEL: (No audible response.)
AGENT: But I'll be back on in a few minutes,
huh?
RACHEL: Okay. Well, you —
AGENT: Don't go away.
RACHEL: Oh, SO you want me to get them? Is
that what you ' re saying?
AGENT: Well, a couple of them, sure.
RACHEL : Okay .
AGENT: But I'd, I'd enjoy talking to your
29
1 dad. Heck, if he's as enjoyable to talk to as you are
2 that'd be great, okay?
3 RACHEL: Well, he knows a lot of people in
4 this country, a lot. You know, he was a journalist
5 and —
6 AGENT; Uh-huh.
7 RACHEL: — and he knows a lot of people. He
8 met Billy Graham —
9 AGENT : Hey .
10 RACHEL: — and Michael Landon, and he met
11 President Marcos —
12 AGENT: Uh-huh.
13 RACHEL: — and a lot of people —
14 AGENT: Uh-huh.
15 RACHEL: — in the religious field as well as
16 the secular. A lot of people.
17 AGENT: Well —
18 RACHEL: He was a very likable person.
19 AGENT: Well, good.
20 RACHEL: Is very likable.
21 AGENT: Maybe you can let me talk to him,
22 huh?
23 RACHEL: Yeah, it's his choice if he wants
24 to .
25 AGENT: Okay. Well, I — well, David said
that I could talk to any people that were on that list
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SO I'll give you a call back in about 15, 20 minutes,
half hour, okay?
RACHEL:
Okay.
AGENT :
Hey, I appreciate
RACHEL :
All right.
AGENT :
You be good, huh?
RACHEL :
Okay.
AGENT :
Bye-bye.
RACHEL :
Bye.
{ Phones
hung up)
(End Tape 88.)
25
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